Any tips for turtle Guiles who are also incredibly patient and can reversal nearly all the time? It’s like fighting a spiked wall that throws fireballs at you.
Guile can be pretty annoying. You wanna limit jumping over booms to attack him to a minimum, because you’re probably gonna get flash kicked and maybe crouching fierced. The only time that’s a reasonable thing to do is if you’re standing at about the range of your jumping forward or roundhouse and you have great reactions and jump over a boom as soon as it comes out, but that’s pretty rare. Jumping is also ok if see the Guile player standing… also rare.
Better ways to get around booms depend on where you are on screen, but usually you want controllable neutral jumping fierce or neutral jumping kick or just bulldogging (walking up and blocking booms on reaction, then walking forward again), but toward jumping forward/roundhouse/short and forward buttslam are fine in some situations too. Make sure that if you’re going to jump over a boom that you recognize what speed it is first, and if in doubt just block. You can follow up a jump over a boom with strong/fierce slaps, bulldogging, buttslam, headbutt, jumping toward forward/roundhouse, or toward standing roundhouse sweep.
A great spot for you to try to stand is at like standing sweep range. Here you can sweep Guile with toward standing roundhouse, chip him strong/fierce slaps, beat out crouching forward with your crouching forward/strong/roundhouse, or do walk up fierce grab or ochio.
One thing to note is that if you do fierce grab on Guile midscreen, you can hold jumping toward and do down+fierce for the splash, and it’ll usually cross him up and always be a safe jump. The only problem is that since it usually but randomly crosses up, you can’t be sure which way to block if Guile does a reversal flash kick/super. Generally just block like you’re gonna cross up. It’s stupid for Guile to try reversal most of the time because most of the time you’ll safe jump, so he’ll probably just block expecting a cross up. Once you’re there, you can do all sorts of things, like crouching jab to fierce grab or ochio, crouching short to whatever-strength buttslam, strong slaps, crouching roundhouse, whatever. You can also mix this up by just doing toward jumping forward after the fierce grab, which will never be a crossup.
I love to use both. O.Honda has a nasty 3 hit combo + HHS block damage that is too easy to land (crossup belly flop->cr.LP->LP HHS). Takes a ton of damage plus you are essentially charged for ether sumo smash or headbutt at the end of it. If you nail them with a headbutt after the combo (like if they try to jump away) it is dizzy time and pretty much GGPO.
Yeah. I almost never have a problem with Guile because most people play him the same. It is just that rare player that has perfect zoning + patience and reversal skill that just seems nearly impossible to crack with a character lacking a fireball.
The person who pretty much made me ask this question was wolf1 (I think that was his name). He said your Honda actually busts his Guile up, which is pretty damned impressive. Wish there was a video or two of those matches.
Disclaimer: I am not an expert, feel free to question this advice.
I’ve found that a very useful thing to remember against Guile is that he cannot use his flash kick for a short time after throwing a sonic boom, so you’ve got a short window of time where it’s relatively safe to jump over that boom or buttslam him. On the other hand, be extremely careful if he doesn’t throw a boom for a short while as that probably means he’s preparing for a flash kick.
The towards+roundhouse far sweep is also pretty useful to punish his pokes as it outranges his normals and can trade with booms in your advantage.
Bulldogging is often very difficult against him because of his incredible recovery after booms, a good Guile will throw you enough booms to push you back from blocking the booms so you won’t actually advance anywhere. Some Hondas like jumping straight up with the controllable FP but once again that doesn’t let you go anywhere and mistiming the jumps is dangerous. Against a good Guile, your only real option from a far distance is to just jump over booms or SK/MK buttslam through them instead. HK buttslam is pretty dangerous to use to advance, though, since it’s fairly easy to counter. I try to only use the HK buttslam if I’m sure it’ll actually hit Guile, and never use it just to advance. In any case, where you want to get is just out of range of his sweeps, from there you can punish whatever he does.
But Honda vs Turtle Guile still remains a lot of guesswork and mind games for me. I often do buttslam+HHS or far sweep if I guess he’s going to boom. Far sweeps are also useful against pokes, and sometimes Guile gets twitchy enough with them that he’ll try to psychic Flash Kick them, which often fails and nets you a free hit. If he gets afraid to throw booms (i.e. he’s storing his Flash Kick and waiting for you to jump) I’ll just MP HHS him for tick damage, since it’s impossible for him to Flash Kick you on reaction. If you’re at the right distance, even if he does throw a boom the MP HHS will often trade anyway, and most pokes will be cleanly stuffed. Learn to recognize that distance and be ready to HHS him for free tick (or counter!) damage.
Technically you could also try a walk-up grab, but most Guiles will poke too much for that to be viable and you’ll usually be a bit too far for it to be much of a surprise.
But all these depend on your ability to predict your opponent. The scariest Guiles are those who can reversal Flash Kick only after they see you start a move to tick-damage them, like a buttslam+HHS. Perhaps the safest thing to do after you score a knockdown is to get close to him and try a negative-edge Oochio - if he tries a reversal Flash Kick you’ll just block him, if he tries to block or poke you’ll get the throw. It’s often hard to get into range fast enough, and it’s still pretty dangerous if he decides to go for the counter-throw, but you can train him to not do that by doing meaty far sweeps instead, once in a while.
A crazy thing I like to do in combination with that is to use a buttslam to get close to him as he gets up, but purposefully do it early so I either land before he gets up, or it counts as a safe jump and I’m safe from reversal Flash Kicks anyway. And then do the negative edge Oochio stuff. Bonus points if it crosses up! You have to do it really early though. Often Guile will try to reversal Flash Kick it since the move is so obvious, but since you’re already landed and blocking you’ll get the advantage. Then maybe mix it up by sometimes actually hitting him with the buttslam+HHS for some sweet tick damage so he never knows whether to reversal flash kick or not - that’s much more dangerous to do against reversal fiends but it does increase your psychological “fear factor”.
Overall, though, the only “safe” thing you can do is use that small safe window after a boom to jump-in FP or buttslam and do some tick damage - and that depends a lot on your reflexes… Generally I try more to win the psychological war against Guile because he can technically psychic Flash Kick me anytime else than after a missed boom if he’s calm enough, so I want to do everything I can to upset him and make him lose his concentration. Where Guile thrives on regularness and predictability, you prefer chaos to happen and screw his well-timed patterns. So don’t be afraid to take gambles and try to guess his moves because overall you’ll generally get more out of correct guesses than Guile will out of your mispredictions. Honda vs Turtle Guile must really get into Guile’s mind to win the match, both to predict his actions and to instill paralysing fear.
A bit more on Honda vs Guile:
As I said earlier, when you’re at your traditional ideal range (just out of Guile’s sweeps and within your far sweep range) you have some good options available, most notably your MP HHS (the leading crouch MP will often beat Guile’s low kicks and the HHS itself is basically impossible to flash kick on reaction, though it will lose to Guile’s crouch MK IIRC). Guile’s sweeps beat your own, but if he gets too sweep-happy you can just headbutt them (again, practically impossible to counter on reaction, but it’s riskier because it’ll cleanly lose to booms).
Using your super to close in from a far distance is very safe, there’s really not much Guile can do to punish or prevent it and it leaves you at the right distance to put the pressure.
However there is another range where you can be deadly and that is a bit further back, when you are charged, within the range of the RK buttslam. You’ll often end up there from blocking a boom at the traditional good distance. You look pretty harmless at that distance and Guile will be tempted to Sonic Boom you, but your advantage is that you’re just far enough to have the time to RK buttslam on reaction when Guile throws the boom. The RK buttslam will go through the boom and catch Guile without a flash kick ready, at which point I usually tack on the MP HHS for some tick damage and am at the traditional good distance for Honda. The key here is to be patient and avoid buttslamming until Guile does throw that boom. You really want to focus all your concentration on Guile to catch him as he booms (and he is extremely likely to boom at some point).
Even if he decides to jumpkick towards you instead of throwing a boom, the buttslam has enough invincibility to serve as a good anti-air if you time it late. Normally you’d want to jab headbutt him instead (headbutt is a better anti-air) but only having to focus on the buttslam makes it easier to react fast enough.
If Guile catches on, though, you’re entering a whole new level of mind games because he can guess you’re going to do that and immediately do a jumpkick after the boom to knock you out of the buttslam, and frankly that’s pretty much all he can reasonably do. But he can’t reliably do that on reaction, he has to guess it. And if you guess he’s going to do that (throw a boom, jumpkick to stuff your buttslam) then you can wait for him to jump and counter-headbutt him out of the air easily. If you guess wrong you’ll just block the boom and be pushed back a bit, so it’s a fairly safe thing to do.
Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess. Sounds pretty risky, and it is, but generally you don’t care because Honda is such a brute that you only need to guess right two or three times to win.
Just getting into sweeping range is a huge challenge to peepz that know the matchup well. Guile has so many tricks (backhand, boom, sweeps, flashkick) that its like I have to eat booms to get in. Also, I can’t immediately do a MP HHS (can’t tap that fast). May have to work on that.
No it isn’t. Not against anyone that knows Honda’s super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I’ve played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.
Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards. Even without it I’ll most likely trade with a crouching FP in Guile’s favor. Then it is footsies into boom to knock me back.
A smart guile would never ever jump into a charged honda. Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.
I know this is a guessing game for honda when the guile player knows how to work the match. I was just hoping that honda had some secret answer to make the match a little less of an uphill battle. I’ve only run into two “Invincible Turtle” guiles on GGPO so far, but I would like to try and put up a better fight next time :tup:
Thanks for the info guys.
It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.
yeah that doesnt work dude
O rly? Making me doubt myself, eh? I’ll test it when I get back from work
None of the projectile charge specials allow you to end on a diagonal direction. This isn’t boxer we’re talking about here.
NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion…
I’ve never been Guile-reversaled after a blocked super from fullscreen, and there’s been a few Guiles who have tried it. Guile just whiffs. Maybe it’s actually possible, but I haven’t encountered someone who can do it yet.
Or maybe you’re talking about a blocked close-range super? Yeah, that can happen, but normally you want to reserve the super to get close from fullscreen.
Nope. It’s impossible to throw a boom without losing your down charge. That’s your single best weapon against Guile and is why I feel Guile is easier to crack than the shotos, who can DP whenever they want to.
I haven’t really experienced counter throws after buttslams so I can’t speak to that (you do have the Oochio which makes it pretty hard for anyone to throw you). However the jumping attacks are a very valid worry and one of the things that’ll throw your game, however Guile must guess your buttslam for that because it’s extremely hard to do it successfully on reaction. So it’s a two-way gamble and you basically have two main options in that situation (out of far sweep range, but charged):
- Buttslam on reaction after the boom.
- If Guile jump-attacks right away, you lose: you eat a jump attack and Guile likely retreats full screen.
- If he doesn’t, you win: your buttslam is either blocked and you can often follow up with HHS, your buttslam trades with his crouch FP and Guile is knocked down which is a Very Good Thing, or it cleanly hits (rare!)
- Don’t move and stay charged.
- If Guile jump-attacks right away, you clearly win: you can easily headbutt him out of the air. He’s then knocked down for a while, and you’re mobile and can close in on him for whatever wakeup games you want to do.
- If he doesn’t, you kind of lose: you block a boom and are pushed back.
If you guess right as often as you guess wrong, on average the gains are bigger for you than they are for him so you’ll come up on top. Of course, that implies you can get to HK buttslam range relavitely easily, which isn’t that obvious.
All of you are right. I just tested it. For some reason I thought he could. Shows how much I actually play as Guile :xeye:
I swear to god though some people I play against can launch one so quick after a boom…
I believe you can use charge partitioning in ST? Not sure, I only casually play Guile.
Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.
Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile’s cr.Forward.
Had you actually read my posts, you might have noticed that this is exactly what I’ve suggested.
Bulldogging is one of the several options you need to have to get around Guile’s booms and pokes. This matchup isn’t about doing one thing or another thing, it’s about having several different options and using one you don’t think the Guile player is expecting. Bulldogging is useful if you expect the Guile player to wait to boom on reaction or to jump after throwing a boom, for example. Neutral jumping fierce and kicks are probably your best options overall, but they’re susceptible to getting jump kicked and crap, so you can’t do them every time.
If I can teach my Guile opponent to keep poking in expectation of me walking up and throwing him, that’s great, I can eat him up with crouching strong, crouching forward, standing jab, standing forward, and crouching roundhouse. The reality is that Guile won’t be poking with impunity because he expects those attacks and knows that they usually bust right through his pokes, and even where they trade Honda wins on damage. Don’t expect to get walk-up throws very often or to try very often either, but your opponent has to know that you’re capable of doing it.
The buttslam has more recovery than the flash kick has startup, meaning that they can never be safe jumps against Guile. I guess they can be safe jumps against someone like Boxer, but you have way better options anyway.
Guile can flash kick in between the first blocked hit and the second hit, and a good one will do it every time. Doesn’t even have to be reversal timing. And if you do it from farther than midscreen, even if the Guile player isn’t charging when you start the super, by the time the opening before the second hit comes around he’ll already have a flash kick ready. Basically, don’t use the super.
You shouldn’t usually do anything, you should mix it up as much as possible. Strong/fierce hands, walk up throw, headbutt, walk up poke, whatever, but if you train your opponent to always block after blocking a buttslam and you don’t sometimes throw him for his troubles, you’re letting him off the hook.
No, it basically gets ruined by Guile’s jumping attacks, not that there’s any reason for Guile to ever jump toward you anyway. He’ll neutral jump or back jump with attacks or option-select airthrows sometimes, both of which beat your buttslam straight up, but he won’t jump toward you.
Also, mad possum, no, there’s no charge partitioning in ST.
just of note: if you are using honda hk buttstomp to pass through sonic booms, you’re doing something very wrong.
if you are ever going to use the roundhouse buttstomp, you’re going to need to be doing it near the same time he’s throwing the sonic boom for it to have any decent chance of getting blocked.
too many of guile’s move anti-air honda out of his buttstomp and if the sonic boom is near you when you start your buttstomp, odd are they can use any of those moves to punish you at any time.
if i play against a good guile, i’m looking to get within a f.roundhouse range. guile can’t hit you from here, and with c.strong, s.strong, c.jab, and sometimes c.fierce, you can play a good footsie game while keeping your charge ready for anti air and sonic boom punishing. if they don’t want to play with you, then hundred hand slap them to get your chip (and hope they don’t flash kick) and hopefully work them into a corner.
if guile spams jabs, you f. roundhouse, and advance.
you can throw in the random fierce headbutt into your footsie game to score knockdowns off of potential low kicks but all in all you want to contain guile stead of having him push you back, which is what getting a blocked headbutt will potentially end up in.
and just as a bit of useful knowledge, if you hit your super on guile as he is throwing his sonic boom, you’ll get the ever amazing 2 hit no knockdown guile standing right in front of you situation, which is one of the best things that can happen to you in the matchup… doing damage to guile, getting right in his face with ochio potential and a stored charge… it doesn’t get much better. its still very risky, as you pretty much have to do the super simulatenous with his soinc boom for it to hit like this, but in evo 2k6 i hit someone with it like 3-4 times in pools, so if you get a good read, its worth it to try.
Actually I think Guile gets frame advantage if you hit him with the 2-hit crap super. It’s almost like the best case scenario for you if you’re doing super is for it to get blocked and Guile to not have charge to interrupt it.
Basically, don’t use the super.
Let me correct something Honda can store a Charge. let me see if i can explain, perhaps there is just a difference in what storing is in this situation. If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing… works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.