Just getting into sweeping range is a huge challenge to peepz that know the matchup well. Guile has so many tricks (backhand, boom, sweeps, flashkick) that its like I have to eat booms to get in. Also, I can’t immediately do a MP HHS (can’t tap that fast). May have to work on that.
No it isn’t. Not against anyone that knows Honda’s super blocked = free reversal. Any Guile that I’ve played that knows that will give me a flashkick for my trouble any time. They also are smart enough to realize that when I have super to not throw sonic booms.
Smart guiles charge down back, so even if they fire a boom they are pre-charged for a flashkick directly afterwards. Even without it I’ll most likely trade with a crouching FP in Guile’s favor. Then it is footsies into boom to knock me back.
A smart guile would never ever jump into a charged honda. Also, good Guiles seems to be able to react and hit me out of Sumo Smashes with a jumping FP or just throw me out.
I know this is a guessing game for honda when the guile player knows how to work the match. I was just hoping that honda had some secret answer to make the match a little less of an uphill battle. I’ve only run into two “Invincible Turtle” guiles on GGPO so far, but I would like to try and put up a better fight next time :tup:
It is easy if you have a square gate. Hold DB, go from DB to DF punch (for sonic boom). At this point you still have a down charge, so you are free to go for a flash kick after you recover from a sonic boom.
NO! u cant!!! the ONLY character who can store charge is Balrog! because of his dash low (DF) and headbutt (UB), Guile CANT store charge!!! the only way is doing the motion very fast (down back to forward to down back + P) or the flash kick motion…
I’ve never been Guile-reversaled after a blocked super from fullscreen, and there’s been a few Guiles who have tried it. Guile just whiffs. Maybe it’s actually possible, but I haven’t encountered someone who can do it yet.
Or maybe you’re talking about a blocked close-range super? Yeah, that can happen, but normally you want to reserve the super to get close from fullscreen.
Nope. It’s impossible to throw a boom without losing your down charge. That’s your single best weapon against Guile and is why I feel Guile is easier to crack than the shotos, who can DP whenever they want to.
I haven’t really experienced counter throws after buttslams so I can’t speak to that (you do have the Oochio which makes it pretty hard for anyone to throw you). However the jumping attacks are a very valid worry and one of the things that’ll throw your game, however Guile must guess your buttslam for that because it’s extremely hard to do it successfully on reaction. So it’s a two-way gamble and you basically have two main options in that situation (out of far sweep range, but charged):
Buttslam on reaction after the boom.
If Guile jump-attacks right away, you lose: you eat a jump attack and Guile likely retreats full screen.
If he doesn’t, you win: your buttslam is either blocked and you can often follow up with HHS, your buttslam trades with his crouch FP and Guile is knocked down which is a Very Good Thing, or it cleanly hits (rare!)
Don’t move and stay charged.
If Guile jump-attacks right away, you clearly win: you can easily headbutt him out of the air. He’s then knocked down for a while, and you’re mobile and can close in on him for whatever wakeup games you want to do.
If he doesn’t, you kind of lose: you block a boom and are pushed back.
If you guess right as often as you guess wrong, on average the gains are bigger for you than they are for him so you’ll come up on top. Of course, that implies you can get to HK buttslam range relavitely easily, which isn’t that obvious.
I believe you can use charge partitioning in ST? Not sure, I only casually play Guile.
Thelo, it sounds like your not playing upper level Guile players.
Patience, most important thing when playing Guile. He recovers quickly after a Boom and has lots of options, cr.Roundhouse, Fierce, Backfist, back St.Forward, cr.Forward, etc.
Need to work your way into range where you can Roundhose Buttslam on reaction to Boom. When your in range cr.Strong is a good counter to Guile’s cr.Forward.
Bulldogging is one of the several options you need to have to get around Guile’s booms and pokes. This matchup isn’t about doing one thing or another thing, it’s about having several different options and using one you don’t think the Guile player is expecting. Bulldogging is useful if you expect the Guile player to wait to boom on reaction or to jump after throwing a boom, for example. Neutral jumping fierce and kicks are probably your best options overall, but they’re susceptible to getting jump kicked and crap, so you can’t do them every time.
If I can teach my Guile opponent to keep poking in expectation of me walking up and throwing him, that’s great, I can eat him up with crouching strong, crouching forward, standing jab, standing forward, and crouching roundhouse. The reality is that Guile won’t be poking with impunity because he expects those attacks and knows that they usually bust right through his pokes, and even where they trade Honda wins on damage. Don’t expect to get walk-up throws very often or to try very often either, but your opponent has to know that you’re capable of doing it.
The buttslam has more recovery than the flash kick has startup, meaning that they can never be safe jumps against Guile. I guess they can be safe jumps against someone like Boxer, but you have way better options anyway.
Guile can flash kick in between the first blocked hit and the second hit, and a good one will do it every time. Doesn’t even have to be reversal timing. And if you do it from farther than midscreen, even if the Guile player isn’t charging when you start the super, by the time the opening before the second hit comes around he’ll already have a flash kick ready. Basically, don’t use the super.
You shouldn’t usually do anything, you should mix it up as much as possible. Strong/fierce hands, walk up throw, headbutt, walk up poke, whatever, but if you train your opponent to always block after blocking a buttslam and you don’t sometimes throw him for his troubles, you’re letting him off the hook.
No, it basically gets ruined by Guile’s jumping attacks, not that there’s any reason for Guile to ever jump toward you anyway. He’ll neutral jump or back jump with attacks or option-select airthrows sometimes, both of which beat your buttslam straight up, but he won’t jump toward you.
Also, mad possum, no, there’s no charge partitioning in ST.
just of note: if you are using honda hk buttstomp to pass through sonic booms, you’re doing something very wrong.
if you are ever going to use the roundhouse buttstomp, you’re going to need to be doing it near the same time he’s throwing the sonic boom for it to have any decent chance of getting blocked.
too many of guile’s move anti-air honda out of his buttstomp and if the sonic boom is near you when you start your buttstomp, odd are they can use any of those moves to punish you at any time.
if i play against a good guile, i’m looking to get within a f.roundhouse range. guile can’t hit you from here, and with c.strong, s.strong, c.jab, and sometimes c.fierce, you can play a good footsie game while keeping your charge ready for anti air and sonic boom punishing. if they don’t want to play with you, then hundred hand slap them to get your chip (and hope they don’t flash kick) and hopefully work them into a corner.
if guile spams jabs, you f. roundhouse, and advance.
you can throw in the random fierce headbutt into your footsie game to score knockdowns off of potential low kicks but all in all you want to contain guile stead of having him push you back, which is what getting a blocked headbutt will potentially end up in.
and just as a bit of useful knowledge, if you hit your super on guile as he is throwing his sonic boom, you’ll get the ever amazing 2 hit no knockdown guile standing right in front of you situation, which is one of the best things that can happen to you in the matchup… doing damage to guile, getting right in his face with ochio potential and a stored charge… it doesn’t get much better. its still very risky, as you pretty much have to do the super simulatenous with his soinc boom for it to hit like this, but in evo 2k6 i hit someone with it like 3-4 times in pools, so if you get a good read, its worth it to try.
Actually I think Guile gets frame advantage if you hit him with the 2-hit crap super. It’s almost like the best case scenario for you if you’re doing super is for it to get blocked and Guile to not have charge to interrupt it.
Let me correct something Honda can store a Charge. let me see if i can explain, perhaps there is just a difference in what storing is in this situation. If i do Sumo Smash from the down back to the up back position im still charged for a headbutt when i land i immediately do a fierce head butt and end up on the other side of the player. i may have video of this ill check it out. i do this all the time so its not a fluke thing… works great against Blanka after a blocked BS. go right into HButt. Many are expecting a throw or hands no one ever expects a headbutt.
I do that all the time (Sumo Smash into immediate fierce headbutt) but it seems that 95% of the time the enemy will backjump over the headbutt and throw me for my trouble during my headbutt recovery, so maybe it’s worth delaying that headbutt just a little bit to avoid that. The shotos are especially dangerous for this it seems.
Sorry man but you’re wrong on this one. Blanka can store a charge with forward hops and O Guile can store a charge with knee bazooka. Both are forward progress pressure moves. Not as powerful as Rogs but still the same thing.
Actually Honda can’t store charge for the headbutt, it’s just that Honda’s charge moves require the least charge time of any charge moves in the game (well, tied for that anyway), so you when you start the buttslam and immediately start holding down-back again, by the time you land and recover, you’ve already charged long enough to do headbutt, buttslam, and super.
Also, Blanka can’t store charge. Toward hop to ball is done with vertical ball, and it’s done by holding down to start charging for the vertical ball, hold down-toward plus kicks to get the hop and keep charging for vertical ball, and then press up+kick. And Guile isn’t storing for the same reason, he’s still charging while that move is going on.
When Honda does a headbutt, he has to lose his downcharge, because you can’t input it as “charge db, df+punch”. So you can’t really do headbutt -> immediate buttslam.
But Honda can perfectly well do a buttslam as “charge db, ub+kick”, so you can do buttslam -> immediate headbutt without ever losing your backcharge. Sure, you can also just start your charge really fast during the buttslam, but why bother? :wgrin:
That’s what’s happening, you’re charging for a new headbutt. You’re not keeping your headbutt charge from before the buttslam, you’re charging for a new headbutt and by the time your buttslam finishes, you’re fully charged for a new headbutt. You can also charge for another buttslam or for a super during a buttslam.