I believe several other WW characters also have a re-dizzy. I know Chun can do it with her standard jump-in, st.str, cr.RH, and shotos often do it with jumping RH, st.fierce xx hadouken.
I suppose Honda has one too.
In a game where you can cps-1 chain any normal into another, pretty much everyone has a redizzy combo. I think HF is the only one with a little more restrictions, so it makes harder for the rest of the case (unless you’re Dictator)
Pretty sure HF bison lost all his combo goodies from CE. HF Bison is easily the worst version of his character.
Whoops. Got the game mixed up. I meant CE Dictator. Everyone had a dizzy and re-dizzy in WW, but since that sort of stuff got toned down in general, it highlights Dictator’s strength in that he can do it off of a scissor kick on hit OR on block.
I noticed, that some japanese players tend to go for normal tick throws instead of ticks into ochio? Any particular reason for it?
Fierce and Roundhouse holds (bear hug and knees) can be followed by safe jumps and baits, so they often allow you to glue onto the enemy and land more damage over time. This is specially true midscreen, where oichio allows the player to escape. Shogatsu is knows for his nasty throw loops and mix-ups, for example.
To be fair though, O.Honda ONLY has tick throw setups with no ochio
You can also do ambiguous and delayed crossups after a fierce grab. It’s quite good for repeat damage setups, and if need be, you can always end it with an ochio.
Honda’s pressure after grabs is so great it always seems more worth it to me to grab first, unless you are worried about getting thrown yourself - Honda’s normal throw range is better than a lot of characters, though. Every character can be pressured in some fashion after a fierce grab (some easier than others), so you could always tick into ochio or bait a reversal after already doing the fierce grab damage.
His normal strong throw is also integral for tossing opponents into the corner and maintaining pressure.
The only issue is that Honda’s walk speed is so bad, it tends to downplay how good his throw range is. It’s similar in the way that Chun and Vega have decent and bad throw ranges respectively, but their walk speed tends to make up for that weakness.
So it’s also an element of knowing the mind games around the throw. How to bait out certain attacks, whiff punish it, preemptively throw out a sweep, how to train your opponent to block in order to open them up for that throw, etc… The metagame around this stuff is pretty complex beyond just examining throw ranges.
Like others have mentioned, Honda has amazing options off his HP/HK throws. If the Honda player catches Vega, Balrog, Guile, or Deejay (super non-withstanding for the last three) near midscreen with ether throw the round is likely over. Those throws will also give Chun, Bison, and Dhalsim a really tough time too.
Is it just me or does every decent shoto player now have jump in/OS down pat? Makes the match 10x harder Life is hard for the sumo enough as it is.
Maybe not ALL of them, but a good chunk of them. It’s not all that difficult to do given that Honda’s reversals aren’t even that fast.
The worst part is that you don’t even need to do them. I never jump at Honda on his wakeup. Just two fireballs in his face is enough to push him away, build meter, and do chip damage.
I was looking at the Honda freeze throws… wow crazy stuff. the weirdest thing I have ever experienced in ST ( all arcade) was Honda vs Honda match and I was being throw with mp and I was able to oichio out of the throw. Not sure how I was able to do this but I was only ever able to do it again once. I also saw on ggpo Claw throw Honda out of the first few frames of the oichio. I have this recorded but not sure how to post it here.
Those aren’t possible . Throws are 0-frame startups, so there is nothing you can do once the throw animation itself starts. You’re probably just seeing GGPO rollback. That doesn’t happen offline.
I recently did some work in the Honda ST wiki for character matchups. Anyone care to comment? All my edits are under “x64” (grumble grumble wish I could change username grumble). Keep in mind most of the matchup stuff was blank when I started.
Nice! Glad to see someone still putting in work into the wiki. I’ll check it out.
Overall, pretty good writeup! But in the vs. Blanka section, shouldn’t it be that Blanka uses neutral jump LK a lot? I see them using that much more than neutral jab.
I really outta sit down one of these days and pen out the details of Sim v. Honda. I’ve pretty much got that matchup nailed perfect down to each situational counter.