Fierce and Roundhouse holds (bear hug and knees) can be followed by safe jumps and baits, so they often allow you to glue onto the enemy and land more damage over time. This is specially true midscreen, where oichio allows the player to escape. Shogatsu is knows for his nasty throw loops and mix-ups, for example.
To be fair though, O.Honda ONLY has tick throw setups with no ochio
You can also do ambiguous and delayed crossups after a fierce grab. It’s quite good for repeat damage setups, and if need be, you can always end it with an ochio.
Honda’s pressure after grabs is so great it always seems more worth it to me to grab first, unless you are worried about getting thrown yourself - Honda’s normal throw range is better than a lot of characters, though. Every character can be pressured in some fashion after a fierce grab (some easier than others), so you could always tick into ochio or bait a reversal after already doing the fierce grab damage.
His normal strong throw is also integral for tossing opponents into the corner and maintaining pressure.
The only issue is that Honda’s walk speed is so bad, it tends to downplay how good his throw range is. It’s similar in the way that Chun and Vega have decent and bad throw ranges respectively, but their walk speed tends to make up for that weakness.
So it’s also an element of knowing the mind games around the throw. How to bait out certain attacks, whiff punish it, preemptively throw out a sweep, how to train your opponent to block in order to open them up for that throw, etc… The metagame around this stuff is pretty complex beyond just examining throw ranges.
Like others have mentioned, Honda has amazing options off his HP/HK throws. If the Honda player catches Vega, Balrog, Guile, or Deejay (super non-withstanding for the last three) near midscreen with ether throw the round is likely over. Those throws will also give Chun, Bison, and Dhalsim a really tough time too.
Is it just me or does every decent shoto player now have jump in/OS down pat? Makes the match 10x harder Life is hard for the sumo enough as it is.
Maybe not ALL of them, but a good chunk of them. It’s not all that difficult to do given that Honda’s reversals aren’t even that fast.
The worst part is that you don’t even need to do them. I never jump at Honda on his wakeup. Just two fireballs in his face is enough to push him away, build meter, and do chip damage.
I was looking at the Honda freeze throws… wow crazy stuff. the weirdest thing I have ever experienced in ST ( all arcade) was Honda vs Honda match and I was being throw with mp and I was able to oichio out of the throw. Not sure how I was able to do this but I was only ever able to do it again once. I also saw on ggpo Claw throw Honda out of the first few frames of the oichio. I have this recorded but not sure how to post it here.
Those aren’t possible . Throws are 0-frame startups, so there is nothing you can do once the throw animation itself starts. You’re probably just seeing GGPO rollback. That doesn’t happen offline.
I recently did some work in the Honda ST wiki for character matchups. Anyone care to comment? All my edits are under “x64” (grumble grumble wish I could change username grumble). Keep in mind most of the matchup stuff was blank when I started.
Nice! Glad to see someone still putting in work into the wiki. I’ll check it out.
Overall, pretty good writeup! But in the vs. Blanka section, shouldn’t it be that Blanka uses neutral jump LK a lot? I see them using that much more than neutral jab.
I really outta sit down one of these days and pen out the details of Sim v. Honda. I’ve pretty much got that matchup nailed perfect down to each situational counter.
Typo. Fixed lol. I personally think I have the Honda v Sim down pretty well myself. We should meet up on fightcade sometime. So rare to fight a good sim.
I never play online. I already have issues with timing and consistency, so I try to play offline as much as I can. Pretty lucky to have access to offline setups and a decent community, so I try to take advantage of it as best I can.
I can’t do a damn thing online. It’s pretty embarrassing. I have no idea how guys like Yito and the Japanese players do it. My reactions and timing drop to absolute shit.
My style is heavily reactionary and defensive, especially against Hondas, I’d very likely die quickly to spammed buttslams, headbutts, and hands.
I understand. If you do find yourself on Fightcade sometime though, I’m in Oregon, so our ping should be close to optimal (I think you’re SoCal if I remember right).
the oichio reversal actually happened in the arcade not on ggpo or fightcade… it was a bizarre thing and like I said, I never saw it or was able to duplicate it again…
how do you effectively HP HHS with honda? I think honda is a chracter with such a great potential, but mastering his famous (HP) HHS is such a difficult task. i usually use my index and middle finger to double tap the HP button rapidly. This usually ends up in my fore arm being tire and sore after executing HHS about 3-4 times. Is there a way I can cast HHS without killing my wrist. Also tips on MK. Most honda players j.j.x HP HHS. how do they do that? it seems impossible
There are two main ways to do this in practical situations:
The main way. You buffer HP hands with another input. For example, you whiff a LP before mashing furiously on HP. You need 5 inputs to do HP hands, so you sorta press LP a split second before you start wailing on hands. This same idea applies to other buttons as well. You can whiff his sweep into hands, do a floaty neutral jump fierce into hands, you can do it as you’re doing a jump attack, etc…
Advanced strings. You can actually connect HP hands consecutively one after another, but requires extremely good timing. In essence, you’re basically buffering hands off of the input of the previous hands. Requires VERY good timing and consistent execution on your part, but there’s nothing scarier than a Honda who can prove he has good hands mastery and can pressure at mid range.
Honda has fantastic turtling ability and has great comeback potential with his high damage normals, fast stun combos, and powerful throws and ochio throw setups.
As far as tricks? There are none. I’ve watched a variety of high-level Honda players’ hands and they either mash one button furiously, trill the input (moving the hands while double tapping the same button). Some players can even use all 4 fingers to piano the same button, which requires a lot of dexterity and practice.
It’s a great way to develop hand and finger strength, but it is very tiring, especially in matchups where you’ll do it frequently.
I don’t know what tips you want for his MK, other than it serves as an oddball and situational anti-air while standing, and while crouching is great at counterpoking certain low pokes with poor priority.