it was a legit post… sometimes using stuff that is not usually used can be effective. but just don’t over use it . finding a way of mixing up two different patterns in the same situation can be a great advantage.
What? C’mon, don’t take it too personally. People can express diffent opinions, that is part of posting on a forum! :wgrin:
I don’t think honda ment his reply as an attact.
There are tons of people who play tons of different chracters. When it comes to mid/lower tier characters such as Honda (sorry Honda fans :lovin:), there are tons of differnt ways to approaching things b/c there is no single dominate tactic they can exibit to get out of problematic situations… hence being low tier.
People want to hear what other have to say as long as their not speaking out thier @$$.
yes exactly! So much has been uncovered in ST over the past many years. Its tough to come up with something never seen before. i haven’t seen that thing in a long time. in fact i re-learn stuff every tourney i enter. half the time i forget things i have seen 6-7 years prior. Its nice to see people actually taking the time to experiment with things.
A while back, Apoc posted jokingly that (and I paraphrase) among the old school players, ST tournaments were no longer about who was the best, but who had forgotten the least. Forgetting matchups and general memory loss is evidently a serious hurdle for the 30 and older crowd
ST discussions are cyclical. Skilled and devoted players come along, drop a few knowledge bombs, and after a time fade from the scene due to real life obligations or lack of interest. Newer players pay attention, take up the reins, and make important contributions. But there’s no central repository of ST knowledge. Before experimenting with something “new,” a player can’t consult the big book of ST and realize that “Honda bear hug in the corner followed by a properly timed c.RH crosses up” has already been discovered. So, for better or worse, new player or old, we reinvent lots of really cool wheels with spinners.
Wow…Bob Painter. I wish I had played his Honda more. I’m guessing he “retired” from the SF scene much like Milo did. I knew those cats personally, BTW. You got me reminiscin’ about the old days.
Anyway, I would think that if you’re bear hugging with Honda, you probably got it by accident and any shenanigans you pull after that should be geared toward landing the Ouchio Throw. Am I crazy?
Hmm got me thinking of some mess with that bear hug stuff… bear hug walk forward do Standing low RH which will cross-up then go and try for oichio. blah… i rarely use the bear hug unless i’m trying to counter throw a certain characters throw. I have found out that i can counter throw certain characters throws with certain throws. so if Ken tries to do low short into a leg throw i should use leg throw to counter that, not his bear hug or MP throw. I do not think it has anything to do with the game mechanics but it seemed to work a lot for me in the past. perhaps it was just psychological.
Is Hondas jab headbutt ALWAYS safe to use as an anti-air? Is there stuff that beats it?
Does O.Honda have a different throw range than N.Honda? I remember watching a vid where an O.Honda tor up a couple of guys using alot of kneebashing (RH right?) throws, one of the guys played Boxer and almost never threw the Honda back.
While your statement makes sense, in my personal experience against one of Europe’s top Ryu and Chun players, as well as some pretty good Deejay and Guile players, RH Sumo Splash is an absolutely awful move in general and often lead to me eating damage for free.
The only time I’ll personally use RH Sumo Splash is for some crossover trickery, i’ll never use it for anti-projectile purposes.
Like I said, that’s just my personal view on the move - if other people want to keep it in their arsenal, it’s all good.
Jab Headbutt is invincible on start-up so theory wise, it beats everything - the trick is learning the timing to use the start-up (which is an attack all on it’s own) to anti-air, not the actual torpedo itself.
I’m fairly sure that Old and New Honda’s normal throws share the same grab range. Without seeing the video myself, i’m taking a guess that the reason why the Boxer couldn’t throw back is because, iirc, Honda’s normal throw range is larger than Boxer’s.
Hondas Jab Head butt is like RWD said “invincible on start up”. But you must watch for early jumps and far jumps which will effectively make your JHB worthless and very vulnerable. As far as i know the throw ranges are the same. You also can be throw out of the JHB by things such as Gief and Thawks 360’s. Early jump by Zangief then 360 = death for Honda.
Dj cannot defend against the RH smash his recovery is too slow, Guile however can, Chunli cannot recover in time either. Ryu and Ken yes they are fast enough. Remember i don’t mean that they cannot recover as in they will be hit by the RH splash, they all can block it, just some block at different stages of the move. DJ and Chun can block but countering it is tough. Guile can just jump away. Ryu and Ken can DP it. Also it all has to do with anticipation of the move as well.
Deejay can just do runaway Max Out > j.RH (which stops pretty much everything) all day and it gives Honda hell - RH Sumo Splash is probably the worst thing you could attempt in that match-up… as for Chun, what self-respectable Chun player is going to throw a fireball anywhere but full screen (or during a block string) anyway?
If both characters are still throwing them at mid-screen or whatever, they deserve to lose.
Like I said, if people want to keep using RH Sumo Splash as a viable way of getting past projectiles, that’s cool - i’ve already covered what I think are the better ways of dealing with projectiles in a previous post.
actually in the DJ scenario i would allow the Jump RH to hit me then just when he think ill do it again block the Maxout then hit him when he lands with F HButt or block then jab headbutt into a med splash. No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from from more than mid screen anyways so that is pointless to even mention. This is all up close and personal RH smahses. The timing of the RH smash means EVERYTHING. I do agree med is 100x better than RH, RH smash has its purpose though.
Deejay can throw a Max Out then see what your going to do and counter if needed, no legit Deejay is going to throw a projectile in a bad position then blindly j. RH in vain hope your trying to get over it with a Splash.
As for the “No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from more than mid screen anyways” statement - I 100% agree, but it’s shocking the amount of Honda players who do it out of pure desperation. I’m trying to help put learning Honda’s on the right path but making it clear RH Splash is an awful anti-projectile strategy at high levels and is only good for some crossover trickery and a couple of mid-screen strats.
DJ cannot counter if Honda anticipates the max out. if its done on reaction then yes DJ can counter. Almost Everything becomes guess when you are playing top tier players.
Honda vs Claw
This match up i give a slight 6-4 or 5.5-4.5 advantage to Honda. The main problems Honda has vs Claw are Claws jumping speed and is mid screen cross up game. First thing to know when fighting claw…Get in the corner as fast as you can. If you get caught in the middle of the screen, you more than likely will take chip damage from the crossup walldives, enough to put Claw on the run and you want to have a lead vs claw not be chasing him all over the board. you must make Claw come to you. (If he gets the lead it will be extremely difficult to get it back.) Sit in that corner and splash or headbutt every jump in he attempts. another trick is to block then ochio the jumpin. you may notice that you cannot headbutt claws jumps most of the time. This is due to the speed of his jumps.
The Air game:. Honda actually fairs quite well in this. Jump back jab stops just about all of the wall dives. Anything off of the wall jumpback jab. if he goes off of his wall sit and head butt it. If he tries to go off of your wall you must use jump back jab to prevent Claw from going of off your wall and causing you to lose your charge. if you are caught not charging or with cement feet use standing fierce.
The ground game: Honda does well but beware of the rolls, sometimes they can hit all of Hondas ground moves. Hands is a nice way to get him out of his ground game. Another danger is the full screen headbutt. Most expert Claw players invite you to do full screen HB then they can do a single back flip then throw you then RUN! Scrolling the screen also meses up Claw so doing repeated Hands (even if they miss) can screw his wall game up.
Honda Vs Thawk
This is one of Hondas best matchups. The air game should not come into play at all in this matchup b/c Honda does not need to Jump or be in the air at all. Honda must beware of a few things against Hawk. The first being his short dive into DP. nice trick easily stopped by either Hbutt after the Dp or hands. Hbutt the dive itself(if in range). if not in range. use hands or safe low jab. Hawk is unable to use Far dives that will hit deep or high. Headbutt stops this. Headbutt stops just about everything that Hawk has to offer. WARNING DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN! Get to the air if Hawk is able to get in after he knocks you down. Jumping back with out hitting any buttons is preferred it tightens your hitboxes and you become tougher to hit. if not Hit fierce or RH very Early. Get in the corner and sit there, headbutt every jumpin and hands often to build meter. If things get up-close and personal Ochio. I cannot emphasize this more 1. DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN!
2. Head butt ALL jump ins.
3 Do Hands often to keep him out of typhoon range.
OK enough with the easy straight forward matches, LOL. I want to hear some other Honda players opinions on the DJ and Chun match-ups. Those are the ones I find the most challenging.
The reasoning behind posting the winnable matches for Honda first is b/c if you cant win those matches then there is no point in trying to win at the difficult ones. I will be posting chun and/or DJ within the next two weeks.
Hello - I’m new to SRK, but not to SFII. Thing is, I’m used to HF from the arcade and super from the snes. I finally decided to move to super turbo via AE due to the release of HD. (lotta acronyms huh?) I of course noticed right away that the normal moves have some differences. (as I did “back in the day” but I seldom played ST back then so it didn’t matter in those days).
First the crouching fierce. I noticed that it’s a double palm most of the time now. Seems to lose range and gain a second hit. Also noticed that “classic” cr. HP sometimes comes out. Question: what governs when the “old” move comes out? Also is the new move an improvement or a nerf? (so far I don’t like it)
Also noticed that his standing roundhouse kicks up more often now, I think it did that when close in turbo and super, but it seems you need to be alot farther away to make the sweep come out now, is this correct or am I wrong on this one? Again, if changed is it good or bad?
Other major one is that his splash needs a down command to come out whereas m kick would always come out as a splash as long as you werent jumping straight up. this change is clearly good as it gives more options - nothing is taken away.
Finally the cr. med and short kicks have a completely different move - he doesn’t crouch low and sideways and flip his foot out sideways like he used to. Is the old move gone? And lastly, is this once again a positive change or a negative?
Any help getting me adjusted is appreciated - I know he has a command throw now and am working on incorperating it also - hopefully I can offer up some decent competition before too long…
Yes i was a little disappointed with the changes to Honda’s regular moves. The old Cr fierce now has to be done while standing. If its done the other way you get the double pump.
Another significant change was his standing fierce which now has random outcomes. Your opponent must be close for this to come out. otherwise its just a straight jab.
his old cr forward and short must be done while standing now basically the switched the standing with cr moves. It gives him more options and a better ground game. His RH hasn’t really changed that much you generally either hold forward or back to get the standing sweep.