How do you workout cancels framedata?


#1

(street fighter IV)

Hi
I was wondering how to work out the framedata for moves that cancels into specials
for example chun li have far light punch at +6 hit advantage which means i can LINK any move that starts in 6 or less frames
however how about CANCELS. for example i know Gen can combo mk to hands. mk hit 2F and hands startup is 4F, so how do you do the math to figure out if this cancel is solid or not. I mean if blocked mk the hands will come out in a solid block string.
Chun can cancel standing mp into kikouken. but that is a loose block string

frame data
(name / startup / active / recover/ blocka / hita/ blocks/hits)

Gen
st.mk 5 3 20 -2 2 20 24
mp hands 4

Chun
st.mp 7 2 10 +2 +5 13 16
mp kikouken 12


#2

Look at the right side of the frame data. There’s a column named Cancel Ability. If it can be canceled, it’ll say here. C=chain cancel(like canceling a jab into another jab), SP=special, SU=super.


#3

I could be way off here, but wouldn’t you just look at the following:

  1. Frames of block stun for the blocked move.

  2. Recovery frames for your blocked move.

  3. Number of startup frames for the move you wish to cancel into.

If #1 - #2 < #3…then it should be seamless right?

EDIT: Crap…now I think I get your question…because some normals can be cancelled into specials at different points. Example is dictator’s c.strong XX scissors…you can cancel the crouch strong at the very beginning of the hit, or way after the hit, but before he recovers fully. Depending on WHEN you did the cancel in this case…it might be safe from DP reversal…or not…hmmmm…


#4

I’m thinking that if it’s cancellable, you can omit #2 from the list, since there shouldn’t be any recovery frames from the blocked move. You’ll just have to look at the block stun for the move, since you should be able to cancel directly from the active frame of the normal. At least, that’s the way how I understand it.


#5

Oh man great point…and that ties into my edit above…where it may depend on WHEN you do the cancel?

All I know is I memorized the FEW air tight blockstrings for my main and alt characters and I switch to those if the first hit is blocked and I’m facing a DP happy opponent.

I wish this game had more real blockstrings, but I know that would change a lot more than just the DP reversal issue.


#6

You can cancel only during active frames of you move…

So sya a move is 2 frames active…you can canel during either of those frames.


#7

I think I figured out the math
we look at the active, recovery, and hit or block stuns of the first move, and startup of the special
in Gen’s case:

Gen (startup active recovery blockstun hitstun)
st.mk 5 3 20 20 24
mp hands 4

we always assume the move hits on its first active frame. for a single st.mk hit you can figure out the advantage by Hitstun - (recovery + active frames - 1)
st.mk 24 - (20+3-1) = +2 hit advantage TRUE according to the table
st.mk 20 - (20+3-1) = -2 block advantage TRUE according to the table

  • notice if a move hit on it is second active frame you will get an additional frame of advantage

when you cancel I am going to assume you disregard the rest of the active frames and the recovery
st.mk -> hands
opponent will be in 24F hitstun and the move takes 4F startup so it easily combos. and with 20F blockstun and 4F startup of next move you get a solid blockstring from cancel

in Chun’s case
blockstun for far st.mp is 13F. mp Kikouken takes 12F to come out so in theory it is a 1F room solid blockstring. however because of the spacing kikouken won’t land on it is first active frame and therefore ruins the solidity of the blockstring. ie the blockstun frames will end before the fireball reaches.
on the other hand close st.fp -> kikouken is solid blockstring because close st.fp gives 17F blockstun and kikouken start at 14/12/10 (lp/mp/hp) and they land in their first active frame(i think) due to chun being too close to the opponent.


#8

Sounds good to me. Explains why people are able to DP a Ryu that gets too predictable with c.mk xx fireball.


#9

Damn venomish…it sounds to me like you nailed the analysis.

Great job there (wouldn’t expect less from a Purdue guy).

A+


#10

when you cancel you look at the hit stun cause you’re cancelling a move. that’s why ryu can cancel cr. lp>hadoken while akuma can’t. it’s cause ryu has 1 frame faster start-up.


#11

@parabellum
thanks :china:

NO.
both CAN cancel cr.lp>hadouken
however only Ryu’s will combo due to the faster startup of his fireball

bonus video:
[media=youtube]qB5atrIJOzw[/media]


#12

my only question is why you would ask the question and then solve the answer like an hour later…

yeah the way you mentioned is the correct hypothesis… only you missed out on a couple of things/uses:

hit pause and block pause are also a factor… unfortunately i dont know how many frames either is, there is no data for either afaik… im not talking about hitstun and blockstun.

also the method you mentioned is used to find out the advantage for blocked fadc’s and such as well… lke how many frames a srk is +/- on block when fadc’d… etc.

also not every move actually cancels on the first frame of animation… especially when talking about fadc’s and such… for instance i’m pretty sure that chun cant cancel her hasan shu into fadc until 4 frames or so after the first frame connects… i was trying to find theoretically possible combos to ultra months ago… but they dont work despite what the fram data says.

just remeber… frames arent everything… capcom didnt give us ALL of the information needed.

-dime


#13

yea that’s what i meant. yeah they both can cancel, but only ryu’s will combo.