how is raiden?

I know he was good in the arcades but he’s the only real kof character I like other than Maxima in this game, Geese Yamazaki and Chang are all out so he’s one of the only characters I can turn to. what does he actually suffer against in the console ver?

he just loses the “short” charge time for the dropkicks, instead he’s given a feint tackle… and a new combo (i think it’s new, qcb+A to hcf+B)
he’s still pretty strong with gdlk normals and high dmg output

It’s really early, but I feel like console Raiden is really not being explored enough by people. He’s lost dropkick bullshit for the most but still has really strong oki after command throw that leads back into itself (Even moreso than before thanks to his new bnb off of cl.C), good normals all around including a really buff j.D and a pretty different jump-arc relative to the rest of the cast. I feel like strong zoning and people who know how to properly rush down a KoF grappler will give him trouble, but there’s some really strong and weird l/r and high/low stuff he can potentially do off his command throw that needs to be fully explored.

Also, read his entry on the srk wiki. It’s currently incomplete but at least has a list of changes.

I’m trying to explore him myself.

I’m relatively clueless. The only worthwhile thing I got going is a bnb (optional cross-up), s.HP, qcb+lp, hcf+k (optional EX of course). Liking his AA-grab.

Here’s something from SNKP to give you ideas or something

So no one seems to know much about Raiden, so I’m gonna go ahead and throw my two cents into the arena.

I personally feel Raiden is still godlike. The dropkick nerf made him not dumb, but honestly he doesn’t even need the dropkick. In fact, in my own personal play I have adopted the all out ignoring of dropkick as anything but a combo tool. Losing the ability to either combo off of low and rolling or losing your overhead and CD moves in my opinion is not worth it at all, Raiden’s tools are too good to waste them on dropkick gimmicks.

So basically with the dropkick nerf Raiden went from a really stupid good striker to an actual grappler in console. Since you don’t have an invincible 2 frame punish that leads to meterless 90%'s anymore, you have to play smarter, which is not exactly a bad thing. Raiden’s really high jump arc makes his empty hop mixup a bit easier to read than other grapplers, but as a plus because he’s often jumping much higher than everyone else, Raiden often wins air to air situations almost regardless of which jumping normal you use. Your opponent pretty much has to have a jumping normal that goes straight up like Kim’s j.B to properly fight Raiden in dogfights. It should also be noted that Raiden’s j.CD puts his hitbox higher on the screen making it more likely to beat air to air challenges as well as being Raiden’s longest reaching jumping normal. It’s quite effective at max range jump ins against zoning characters, as they will likely push a button, throw a fireball, or try to anti air, which causes in a counter hit which gets you a free juggle, most likely ending in a hard knockdown thanks to Raiden Bomb. Anyways, to make your empty hop low/throw game stronger, always time your jump ins as late as possible so your opponent gets a feel for when you time it, so they have no time to react when you empty jump. Exceptions being crossups, since Raiden crossups are pretty ambiguous when done as oki. Watch your opponent’s meter though, EX DP in pretty much every case comes out fast enough to hit Raiden’s fat hitbox.

Moving on to normals, cr./cl.A is a pretty obvious godlike anti air. It’s deceptively fast and has great priority. It’s even capable of stuffing ground normals people can give you a hard time with like Saiki’s far D. His B normals aren’t really notable, cr.B hits low and that’s about it. Not a particularly amazing normal, but good for mixup none the less. Raiden’s D normals are all pretty effective, far D comes out really fast and has solid range and doesn’t whiff on crouching characters making it a great offensive poke, cr.D is a fairly quick sweep with good range, and cl.D is an overhead which is solid for mixups and leads into HD. C normals are similar, but have very specific uses. Far C is Raiden’s longest reaching ground normal, but is pretty slow when compared to far D. It might whiff on crouch, but I’m not sure at the moment. Best used as a defensive poke to keep your opponent away as it has pretty good priority, but again, is slow. cl.C and cr.C are almost opposite in function. cl.C is Raiden’s fastest ground normal making it great for punishes. The first hit is special cancellable and when done so leaves you very close to the opponent, allowing for A Dokugiri into Head Crusher, probably Raiden’s best universal meterless punish. However, cl.C into A Dokugiri on block is NOT SAFE. Even C Dokugiri comes out way too slow to not get punished for it. cr.C has pretty good range and good prority, but fairly slow. Not really good as a punish, but good as a poke and in block strings. cr.C into A Dokugiri **IS SAFE **on block because you are pushed out of range of punish. It’s also good for cancelling into Tackle.

More later.

One thing I forgot to mention was how cr.C can be used as an anti air against the shorter hops like Kyo or Takuma. Jumps or high hops blow it up though.

As for meter usage, I personally feel Raiden doesn’t need meter. Drive and HD I feel is especially unnecesary. Sure, Raiden like many characters has good damage options for HD combos, but I feel it’s better saved for someone else. one or two meter for a super combo/juggle is plenty good as very simple combos can lead to 400-500 damage. Also, it should really be noted how absolutely bananas EX DM’s range is. You know how I said in my last post that cr.C into A Dokugiri was safe on block? Well on hit it’s a free confirm into EX DM. This is especially great on cross up and from C Dokugiri. It totally looks like it wouldn’t combo, but it does. Neo Max should only be used as a last resort reversal.

I am now going to devote an entire section to a very godlike move and my personal favorite Raiden special, C tackle. Raiden’s C tackle has autoguard for the upper body and is realtively safe on block. It seems like the push back puts you just outside of cl.C/D range and allows you to tech throws afterwards. Saiki’s cr.B seems to be able to punish it, however, which leads me to believe Saiki’s cr.B is a 2 frame startup, which is extremely stupid. Lows manage to stop it and he can be hit out of it after startup, which is going to turn a lot of people off to the move, but when you use it correctly it becomes almost like a reversal for Raiden. A preemptive reversal, if you will. What makes this move so godlike is that it subjects opponents to hit stop, which slows them down considerably, while Raiden is still getting ready to charge. What makes this important? Because it allows Raiden to PUNISH things he otherwise couldn’t for various reasons. A good example is Billy’s f.A. Normally safe on block, good in block strings, good for frame traps. A lot of Billy players like to do cr.Bx3 into f.A, and some players will delay the f.A for a frame trap. If they do this, Raiden can do C tackle, plow right through it, and punish Billy for doing it. When you use the tackle on reaction or on prediction to something your opponent is going to do, it becomes an incredibly strong tool to have. Just know who can punish it and don’t throw it out randomly and it’s great.

I should also go over Dokugiri, as it’s a pretty important tool too. There’s a couple uses for Dokugiri, but for the most part you’re going to be using the A version because of how slow the startup is and how long the C version recovers on whiff. You can use it to neutralize fireballs, a midscreen poke that doesn’t put you out there, and oddly enough an anti air. You can also use it to blow up guard meter in shenanigans. For instance, if you do the cr.C into A Dokugiri blockstring, you can do another A Dokugiri and another, and another, and so on. Dokugiri does not push back and is good for controlling space, unless someone has a very far reaching invincible reversal, it’s very hard to escape. C Dokugiri is almost exclusively an oki tool and you should never do it at point blank.

If I can think about anything else I’ll post it.

Hey, good stuff John. Initially I thought Raiden would be best 2nd or 3rd for the D overhead into HD mode, but I’d like to try him first as you suggested…

Right now I’m trying to pick up the basics with Raiden, ie basic combos and such. However, neither here nor dreamcancel has B&Bs for the console version of Raiden.

Most utility is just low. B, low. A, command grab. That does fine for meterless, but what are some good B&Bs for Raiden that you use frequently with drive/meter?

imho Raiden shouldn’t even be using Drive outside of perhaps HD combos, and meter somewhat sparingly. He doesn’t need it for his gameplan and can just build it up for the next character, so I highly agree with John that he’s great as point. He could use meter for EX tackle off of cr.B cr.A for modest damage in the corner (You can link dp+K after it if it takes them into the corner), DM or EX DM throws for punishment, or tack on more damage after cl.C qcb+A or do the cr.C combo that was mentioned, but again I really don’t feel that he needs to use very much meter/drive if at all.

After hcf+K, crossup j.D can be a safe jump if you time it right (Not particularly hard) and he can go for fakeout l/r whiff j.D into meaty cr.B. I believe if the opponent wants to wakeup DP and he doesn’t have a flash-kick style reversal he has to guess which side you’ll land on to get the move out anyways. Also, cr.B cr.A st.D is a pretty decent blockstring, since they’re at too high of disadvantage to hop/jump over the st.D and it has really good priority. There’s a lot to explore with this character and I think he’s really damned solid, but personally I don’t plan to use him seriously.

Yeah I see what you mean now. Played a few tryout matches with him, I found that the only reason I was using meter was for his EX Super Grab. Most of his moves feel the same whether normal or EX.

I do like his wakeup game though, here’s what I got as options:
Jumping crossup C(whiffs) into command grab on the ground.
Early D for the mixup (no real follow ups though)
Late D for the crossup (can end with command grab for another wakeup play, and if they roll just run up and command grab)
Wakeup Green Breath? (probably the best bet versus characters with good wakeup options).

I’m gonna go play him some more, I want to troll my friend by making an El Fuerte color for him XD.

I forgot to mention, depending on how early/late you whiff jD after command throw you’ll land on either side and they still have to commit to some kind of guess (No free jump-out or backdash to get out, just press cr.B earlier than you think you should after the whiff). Well spaced spit could be good if they’re put in the corner, especially C spit.

Best troll color is naked Raiden.

As for combos, there’s only a couple I really use, and the others are decent uses of resources even if I don’t use them regularly.

cr.B, cr./st.A xx Head Crusher (DM also works)
Cl.C xx QCB+A, Head Crusher (DM also works)
Crossup j.D, cr.C xx QCB+A, EX DM
QCB+C, cr.C xx QCB+A, EX DM

Cr.C xx QCB+AC:
(midscreen) db~f+A DC DP+P
(corner) db~f+A DC QCB+A, DP+P
Cr.C xx db~f+A DC db~f+AC, DP+P (EXCELLENT corner carry)
Whatever into db~f+AC DC QCB+C, DP+P

And that’s about it. I’ve managed to link st.B into cr.C (what I have been using for a block string for a while) on roll punish, so there might be something to that, but who knows.

Cr.C xx QCB+AC followed by Cr.C xx db~f+A DC db~f+AC, DP+P

The A shoulder tackle whiffs. The followup works raw, but I can’t get it to work after EX spit.