Between the many bad/annoying match ups, the frustration involved with the move set, getting that familiar feeling that you’re losing to your opponents character rather than your opponent, and in general, dealing with attributes that seem aimed at creating a mediocre, middle of the pack character, I’m definitely dropping Bison. Bison doesn’t just have “weaknesses” he has vulnerabilities. And that’s an important difference.
Stop trying to play this shit like it’s an MMO.
this sounds like very character in SF4 minus about four of them. it comes with the territory of SF4.
I have no idea what the hell you’re talking about.
To be honest, there are a lot of people that have dropped Bison for reasons such as yours. Yes you gotta deal with that list of reasons, but you can’t let it get to you. All in all when it comes down to matchups Bison only really has like 5 bad matchups (most of which as an average, mid tier characters [save for Guile]). That’s still pretty damn good versus the majority of the cast. I think overall he has a great set of normals, although one can possibly argue that, but it is my opinion. Also when it comes to bad matchups, you also have to keep in mind the player you are going against. Regardless of how textbook the person to the character they are using. There is always something different about the way they use the character and that goes for everyone. You need to take advantage of that, hence the meta-game.
Like when it comes to movesets with certain characters, what/who do you have difficulty with exactly?
Nah I have too much time invested in him to drop him now. I also just love the way he plays so it’s Dic for life for me.
For the sake of reference, I’m around a 3800 PP player on XBL. At this level, people have such a great awareness of the Bison matchup, that they know exactly how to exploit him. In the past few days, out of pure frustration, I decided to start using cr. HP because I was sick of the absolutely free jump ins. I will say this, this has been a big deal. I had trained this move in the training room and just chalked it up as useless and slow. But it isn’t. It’s not a cureall, but it’s unquestionably better than being jumped in on absolutely free, or teleporting and being option-selected or grabbed like crazy. Guys, go to endless and only work on this against human opponents, it WILL help.
My bad matchups are the following: Abel, Cammy, Adon, Cody, Dee Jay, Dhalsim, Fei Long, Chun, Guile, Ryu, Seth, T. Hawk, and Vega. I don’t really make much of a distinction between flat out “bad matchups” i.e. Guile, Dee Jay, Cammy, Fei, and always difficult and annoying matchups Vega, Cody. They’re all equally tricky and unfun, though of course some are worse than others.
Regardless of online, you should be more concerned of offline play (first and foremost [not to discredit you]). Let me explain how I see the match-ups and what is worth to do in these certain scenarios as it is my opinion on it. For Cr.HP consider the following;
- If you are facing a character like say Gief, and he would do a regular jump in on you (by regular I mean the character jumping infront of you with no means to try and cross you up). You would react with a St.RH. Next time he jumps in he will use a J.HP to counter your St.RH. Considering how horizontal Gief's hitboxes are with the attackbox being angled fairly deep, it is VERY hard to time a good St.RH, meaning Gief has a much higher chance to snuff out your St.RH, especially if he does a mid-ranged jump in, Gief's hitbox will never get touched. So now Bison's response would be to do a timed Cr.HP. Now it works in your favour due to the properties of the attackbox, and Gief has to respect you. Even off a trade (a late Cr.HP) you are still spacing him out which is the most important thing in that match up, nevermind the slight lead for Gief in damage off the trade, because with the spacing you can easily make up for it. This scenario actually works with a good percentage of the cast, mainly those without a dive kick. Now the issue with the Cr.HP is that it is a slow normal. Now because of that, it has NO use against dive kick characters, because once a divekick is activated, and you tried to punish their jump ins, you would have already tried to Cr.HP. Thus, you would get punished yourself. It becomes a guessing game which is way too risky for Bison.
Here are hitbox references to the Bison/Gief scenario.
- Just off the first example, we already established that Cr.HP is limited as an anti-air. Now it is going to get limited once again as an anti-air against cross ups. It does work. It will hit characters just before they try to cross you up. The only problem with this, is that it tends to lean as a character specific anti-air. Take the Bison/Ryu match up. Ryu's jumping attacks as a cross up have their hitboxes easily exposed behind the attackboxes. Bison's Cr.HP can actually hit those hitboxes. However if you have someone like say, Adon, it is much harder. His J.LK and J.MK, the attackboxes are greater in length and width than Ryu's. You would have to time and train when to do it. Using this as an anti-air is risky, because the risk is very high with certain characters.
All in all there are other options Bison has to deal with the jump in issue. Sweep, dash, teleport, scissor kick. Like those alone can help you deal with this issue.
Against Seth, Guile I would understand. But the rest of the cast shouldn’t be a problem for Bison at all. The way I see it, is I think you need to explore with Bison in scenarios you have trouble with. Get you thinking outside the box, right? Lol.
Look first off, dropping Bison is NOT an option. I don’t care if he dropped to the worst character in the game.
Besides the hopeless feeling i get when faced with a high level Guile the rest CAN be overcome you just have to work for the win
Tbh, just depends where he puts effort in. As I said from before, you gotta explore with the character you are willing to put time and effort in. To this day players like Dogura and Neurosis have won and placed high in their respective tournaments. You don’t see them dropping their characters.
I hate to sound like a doubting Tom, but until I see what kind of competition you’re facing and how you fare against them, I have to take what you’re saying with a grain of salt. I’ve talked to a lot of people who say Bison is fine. Then you get into an endless room with them, and it’s clear that they’re talking middle of the road opposition. I’m not saying this is definitely the case with you, but one never knows. I mean, when you say stuff like “it should be a problem for Bison at all,” I really think you’re overstating things. Bison is solid middle tier (whether he’s top middle, middle middle, or bottom middle depends on who you ask). But when I see people say the majority of the cast is no issue, it makes me think these people aren’t talking about exceptional players. I don’t know of any top Bison players who say the character is a powerhouse or couldn’t use help. Gagapa has recently said Bison has too many bad matchups, and he represents the apex of what any of the rest of us could ever hope to get to.
Here’s what I have to say about Bison, and here’s what I think is going on: I think it’s possible for him to be a viable character, but I think for every hour a Ryu et al. player spends getting good, a Bison player has got to spend 1.5. So will they arrive potentially at the same level of skill and viability, maybe, but one road is much harder and longer, which has long term consequences for how much each player can hope to accomplish. That said, IMHO, there really isn’t the equality between characters you’re suggesting.
I figured you would say that, lol.
The last tournament I was at was Toryuken 2 and I made it third in my bracket. I lost to Rameo twice but it was a very close match. He knew what to do against Bison, and it was a mentally harsh match for the both of us. At the same time, he almost put Dieminion in the losers finals to face me, so it was a uphill battle regardless. Speaking of which, back in NEC of December 2012, although I did not do so well in the tournament, I money matched Dieminion and took the first two matches then he caught up and beat me first to 5. Of course it’s a horrible match-up but I know what to do against Guile, because I have put myself in that scenario enough times. I also had long sessions with Wolfkrone during and before our brackets started up during the last major.
So just to be clear on what type of competition I’m dealing with, you now know.
As I said earlier, regardless of online you should be more concerned of offline play. I haven’t played online seriously in ages. Online play (to me) doesn’t do anything for you. When you play a money match or your in a major, the stakes are really high. I know people that are ranked high online, but then it comes to offline and it’s a different story when they actually play in a tourney, even small city tournies.
As for Bison as a character… I never said he is a high tier character nor did I say anything along the lines of him being a powerhouse of a character. I completely agree that he is a strong mid tier. Infact he will never leave his position on the tier list as a strong mid tier. In the interivew with Gagapa speaking about bad matchups, I agree in terms of the characters you usually see in the top 16 of most tournies, then yeah Bison would have a hard time, half of the characters is either Guile or the even matchups where both characters have to put in work, your not gonna see someone like Gouken or an Ibuki or a Hakan (maybe once in awhile). So this goes back to what I said in the first post.
Anyways with that being said, I’m simply just trying to help. You honestly have the final say on what you want, I’m just giving my two cents, like everyone else.
I might… Then again, I’ve been “dropping” Bison for a year. If the posts being made right now are any indication, I may stick with him, and also pick up Sagat lol.
It depends if they add in Rolento. If they do, then I will move him down to be my secondary instead of Akuma, but if they dont, then I’ll keep maining Bipson