For some reason, I can’t play ST on GGPO because my moves don’t come out. I don’t know if it’s because ST has really strict commands, the GGPO emulator or if it’s due to possible lag and input dropping.
I heard a long time ago ST’s command input is really strict meaning to do a srk, you have to input :f::d::df:+:p: exactly.
I’d say for me that’s difficult to get the perfect input srk because my natural hand movement doing the srk is :f::df::d::df:+:p: or :f::df::d::df::f:+:p:.
I tried all other fighting games and my natural hand srk movement comes out 100%. I even tried ST on dreamcast, ps1, classic mode HD remix, CCC2 ST, AE, and it all comes out. I can’t get the srk on arcade emulated ST to come out everytime like the console versions so does ST have really strict commands or is it GGPO causing my srk to not coming out?
Unless you’re dropping serious frames during the DP motion it should come out 100%. In fact, I find it pretty easy to do on GGPO and Supercade, Try downloading Supercade and see if you have the same problem. Supercade seems to drop less frames. Yes ST’s execution is a little tighter than most games but still should be fairly easy. Most likely your timing is off. Practice SRK’s in succession across the screen with no pause in between. Do it for like 30mins and you’ll never have to worry about it being a problem again.
Should be no different than the console versions. Plus I think ST emulator is a dreamcast version(?). And I agree ST has a strict input but its not overwhelming, you might be doing the dp too fast just make sure you hit every input in one smooth motion.
Hi JubeiNinja, I’m XSPR and as moocus mentioned, I wrote a free program to help with this kind of thing called Execution Aid. PM me with your email address and I can send it to you. It displays your inputs (stick/button presses) in a small window that can hover over your emulator window while you play.
The input requirements are essentially exactly the same as console/arcade. (Are you using the same controller on PC when you try it on GGPO?) However I notice from your post that you describe your natural hand movement has you rolling the stick (or D-pad) from towards through the down-towards direction before getting to down. The srk move requires you to go through neutral on the stick after the initial towards direction, so that alone could be the reason. Execution Aid can let you know if you are hitting the down-towards too early if that’s too hard to see in the game itself. It has a record feature that you can review afterwards to determine if you are going through neutral or not.
Basically I think of it like this. The joystick (or D-Pad) has a circumference of all the directions you can move it out to, from neutral at the center. Picture a quarter-circle within that circumference that has one edge at or near the neutral corner, and the opposite edge at down-towards. Start in offensive crouch (down-towards) of that smaller circle. When you start to try the srk, roll the stick up to the towards direction. When you get there (you are there as soon as you are no longer crouching, ie no down/down-towards direction is held at all), roll around to neutral, then around to down, and down+towards, when you hit the Punch. Leave your left hand/thumb in that direction of down-towards, to start your next attempt from. Keep trying to track this “inner circle of strength”.
I think you have about 200 milliseconds of time (about a fifth of a second), at most, to spend in each of the required directions that will count toward an srk move. Execution Aid can tell you exactly how much time you are spending in each one of the directional inputs (you can save recorded inputs to a file and open it in a spreadsheet, and see that you spent 212milliseconds in down, for example). One last thing, I can record myself doing 10 srk’s and send you the file, which you can play back in the program while you try to match my inputs (mine willl appear in a different color), however it shoots by fairly fast so one of the other ways might be more useful.
btw for what it’s worth, I think most other games would have similar requirements for the srk motion, except for the SF4 games where it’s a lot more lenient to get out the srk (just down-towards, neutral, down-towards and Punch will get it I think)
Because it doesn’t have to go back to neutral, not sure what XSPR is smoking but the input doesn’t require neutral. You can confirm this yourself using frame stepping. Neutral is definitely NOT a requirement, but it helps.
What I do is I go :f:, then I bring the stick straight :d:, then I hit the bottom right corner of the gate and press punch
after testing with execution aid and training mode with sf4 where inputs were shown, i was rolling the srk motion. i also tried a different converter hooking up my stick to the pc and my srk came out much better. i think it’s a combination of me not doing the motion correctly do to st’s strict input and the lag of the converter.
Well you can interpret that way as what Jubeininja was originally doing, i.e. you are rolling it from towards :f:, through :df: to get the stick to :d:. If you pause the emulator and frame-advance through it, you are still going through neutral anyways, so to speak. Are you just leaving the game paused while you are in the :df: direction, until you reach :d: and advance another frame and kind of skipping over that :df: input? (On keyboard it’s even easier to fool yourself by cheating with frame-advance; you just let go of towards after one frame, and press down for the next.) But in actual practice playing the game at speed, you can’t go that route because the game will hear " :f: oh he might want an srk :df: no he wants to crouch now :d: :df: ." You say you bring the stick straight :d: and I understand that you mean “[through neutral] I bring the stick to the direction of ‘middle’ down [i.e., not pressing towards+down, but just down down].” In any case I don’t see how to perform the move without “going through neutral” because I think the game looks for the following conditions:
towards direction and NOT DOWN, between 1ms and 200ms
NOT TOWARDS but down direction, between 1ms and 200ms since 1)
BOTH down AND towards, and a Punch between 1ms and 200ms since 2)
There are only two ways to get from 1) to 2). One way is through neutral. You don’t have to dillydally there, and technically no, there is no explicit requirement for the move to be in neutral, however, the only other way to get there is to roll the stick along the gate edge, passing through down+towards as JubeiNinja originally described, and may even work in a game like SF4 but not other versions of Street Fighter. I don’t think you’ll get an srk to come out with this second method.
Unless you can move the stick faster than a minimum of 1ms or however quickly the game polls your controller for inputs between each call of its loop (ie while it’s processing other game stuff as you make your way through :df:), that is, but again, that’d be pretty fast and you may even risk losing your hand as it may time-travel through a portal that could open, at that speed. Especially if it happens to collide with Chuck Norris’ foot. He once roundhoused this guy so fast, that his foot actually went back in time, and smacked Amelia Earhart in the face while flying over the Atlantic Ocean.
Find your Inner Circle of Strength, and follow along its path through neutral. Do not take shortcuts-- although, once you find the path, you can make that circle “smaller” but it still has to be big enough to pass through neutral. Each iteration, we wind up where we started (at :df:); if we get back to this place before passing through Neutral-- before spending a little time in True Down-- we cannot obtain enlightenment. And uh, if your converter ain’t workin, that’s no good either bro.
btw This is why I never understood how people could allow that stickless controller in tournaments. Seems a lot easier to press a button faster, for a directional, than a stick direction.
You actually can reach :df: and get the move. The issue is taking more time to decelerate the stick and rotate it in the opposite direction. If you take advantage of the gate, specially round ones, you can obtain the move quicker. Move sensitive joysticks such as the Seimitsu also help if you want to obtain it with a fast wrist move. On common Sanwas, be sure to reach the corner at :df:, as Pasky said.
The following issues might be affecting you:
hitting the button too early (control your nerves);
not reaching :f: (eg, :df: instead) before :d::df:;
not reaching :d: (:f::db::df: will not work);
not reaching :df: (:f::d::f: will not work);
[*]many among the above.
Anchoring the controller may help you. This way, you know you actually reach the directions if you move you arm or wrist right. Else, who knows were your controller might be during actual play.
The following motion was used by T. Akiba to determine which of Ryu’s special moves have precedence over the others:
:f::qcb::db::qcf: + button. If done frame by frame with a programmable controller, it will be completed in 7 frames, which is enough time for a Shoryuken every time.
I agree with XSPR when he says all previous games should be similar. I have lent stick controllers to friends and they could not get the moves to come out in emulated Champion Edition. As they were used to anchored sticks (arcade players), they could not hold the stick properly, messing up every motion.
If you want more consistency in dps, double-tap your attack button with 2 fingers like a piano trill. This will ensure that even if you input the attack button too early, you will still kara-cancel into the dp due to the extra inputs . In fact, being able to do extra inputs after a mis-timed special move input is the reason kara cancels exist in the first place. Double tapping counts as 4 separate inputs.
Actually I didn’t consider this before, but you could probably use this technique to get “faster” dp inputs. The fastest possible dragon punch input is inputting the attack on the exact frame you hit :df:. Instead of just hitting the button once and releasing quickly like most players do, you could try to double-tap for 4 inputs to try to hit that exact frame that you reach :df: more consistently. You could also piano for 6 inputs if you dont care about the strength and want more consistency. This is similar to trying to maximize your consistenty in hitting the reversal window timing.
Also no offense XSPR, but I found buttonmasher to be a lot better program than execution aid in providing feedback to the user. Having to paste into excel to see the timings of moves is just a bit ridiculous. Buttonmasher has a large bug in that its frame timing is very inaccurate and it doesn’t recognize hat switches, although I was able to modify its source and fix those bugs. I tried to contact the author about it but I couldn’t send an e-mail through his sourceforge contact information.
some observations now that i’m able to get my srk out more consistently.
i find the best way to get through neutral is doing a “Z” motion on a square gate. that way you don’t accidentally hit :df: on your way to :d: like rolling. the way i did it before was simply “rolling” the stick against the corner of the gate with my hand which is my natural hand movement. add to the fact a laggy converter didn’t help either.
the rolling method works for other fighting games after ST which i tested. i think capcom got wise after ST and allowed rolling srks because its the natural way for most people and a circle gate or american stick is perfect for it. that’s why people initially can’t do srks on a square gate.
variations of ST like hd remix, ccc2, ps1, AE, dreamcast i think has new code that allows for the rolling srk to be done and is a little more lenient on input time. sf4 of course makes it too easy as you can just ride the square gate.
Indeed, I was wrong- I just tested this in Mame for myself and see that it is possible to spend up to 4 or 5 frames or so in the :df: direction on your way to :d:, so going through neutral is not necessary after all. That’s about 66ms in :df:.
No offense taken, ComedyBlissOption. I had templates to parse the raw input data to present it a bit better at one point, for what it’s worth. Even without that, you can scan it to see if you’re getting any down+back if you have a POVhat stick.
JubeiNinja, again I’d be surprised if any one of those ST versions you mentioned are so different from arcade timing requirements.
Yeah, I had mentioned that technique in the mashing topic I made. The issue is: Sanwa buttons suck for it: they activate too near the upper limit of the button course, and the spring is too soft for them to deactivate in time for fast inputs like those you see Tsuji do in the video (link repeated [media=youtube]q_BEl4iZlj0"[/media]). People need to drop them in favor of Seimitsu or Happ competition ones once and for all.
Not necessary, the inputs are just 1’s and 0’s. Technically, the game does not require a neutral input for the motion. Like you said with a stickless arcade input or a keyboard, it’s possible to hit :f: and then go to :d: without touching neutral at all, neutral to the game would mean no directions are being hit, if you frame advance from :f: and then hold :d: while hitting frame advance, you’re never letting go of a direction and a “neutral state” isn’t occuring. All the game cares about is if :f::d::df: was pressed. But you’re absolutely right in that we still go to neutral whether we want to or not if we go from :f: to straight :d:.
I only said that becuase I don’t want him thinking he needs to let go of the stick and go to ACTUAL neutral and then continue his inputs, believe it or not some SNK game motion require this and I didn’t want that confusion.
TLDR: Technically the game doesn’t care if you hit nuetral or not, it’s not a requirement, but you’ll end up doing it anyways.