How reliable Kongoshin actually is for you guys?

gouken

#1

Greetings. I am a still pretty green Gouken player and as the title suggests, my question is how reliable the old man’s counter is for you guys? Kongoshin is the one move I’m really disappointed with. Which is kind of ironic as I picked Gouken as I liked he has a counter in the first place. I would even go as far as say the mere presence of Kongo in Gouken’s moveset is making him fall into a vortex of his own making. Gouken has simply more guesses to make than any other character :smiley: Not to mention its easily baitable and punishable. To me, it seems the counter is for you to style on your opponent once or twice during a match as if you rely on it more it will just get you killed. There are some really tall order guesses involved with it, especially when it comes to attacks that hit high as sometimes you should HP Kongo other times you should MP Kongo, depending on the character you’re facing…:-/ It’s pretty sad considering there aren’t that many purely reactive moves like that in the game and Kongo is the only one that has an additional BS 3-way layer of guessing to the attacked/didn’t of other counters. Not to mention that the active frames are really short so you have to be much more on-point with your timing that the other counters, too.
I find myself landing “good” Kongos only after I’ve played the same person for infinite matches so that way I exploit his habits. In your standard 2 round match though, I doesn’t seem possible to me. Any tips for how to use it, or is it really just a styling tool to flex your muscles on an inferior player?


#2

I personally use it more offensively than defensively to blow up crouch techs and from there you can cancel into super or fadc Shin Sho in the corner. Defensively it has too many holes in it for it to efficiently effective. I complained to Capcom at DTN about this and helpfully they do something about it.

But tbh, with ex tatsu being so good and hitting abolutely everything in Ultra, kongo should be used rarely. I look at now hi w many times I ex tatsu now…I whiff and go sailing but looking at the opponent as I go up 100% of the time, my opponent actually pushed a button.

So all in all, because of the stregnth of ex tatsu it’ll relieve all of the guessing we have to do now for kongo. People will be a little more hesitant to just relentlessly attack knowing there’s no consequences. As of now, kongo is very weak. I almost never use it defensively unless I’m playing characters who like to spam their rapid fire normals ie. Chun, Bison, Guy’s cr.lk and Rogs bitch ass jabs. Oh and Rose and Cody because their game is all frame traps.


#3

Kongo becomes ineffective when my opponent starts picking up on my patterns, but it is hella useful for conditioning people to empty jump for their okizeme game. Once they do, often times, they go for empty jump throws which I do a wakeup neutral jump.

I also opt to use low or EX after Cody’s f.mp frame trap setups. I’m guessing that can be option-selected with throw in case he doesn’t go for cr.lk.

Other than that, it does wonders on people who haven’t gotten comfortable fighting Goukens in general (i.e. forgetting they got shat on for doing a jump-in). Under this premise of thinking, relying on kongo is almost gimmicky for me.


#4

There is still a benefit to using kongo defensively as opposed to EX tatsu in Ultra, and that’s the punishment factor for a bad read.

If you don’t have three bars and use EX tatsu, you are looking at a level 3 crumple into max punish/Ultra.

Kongo is usually a hit confirm or throw.

I like to use it sparingly when people have made their patterns known or when people jump at fireballs (they almost always go for the heavy attack for a combo) or if I whiff a sweep and people jump at me to attack.


#5

THROW OUT KONGO LIKE POP ROCKS ! FUCK IT!


#6

Kind of what Takin says but allow me to elaborate. If you start using kongo SAFELY after block strings or at mid range footsies when you are pretty sure you’ll be okay if it whiffs, the other player now questions their buttons. Make them question their buttons, get them out of their comfort zone, deflate them. That’s how I look at kongo. It’s not a game winner, it’s a game changer.


#7

best is to cancel into kongo from pokes!


#8

the biggest thing to remember about kongo vs tatsu for antiair is that kongo can’t be safejumped, only emptyjumped or weird-hitboxed against non-exkongo.


#9

I don’t know how you’re applying this, but this would’ve resulted in a knock down followed by getting pressured by the opponent for me.


#10

I kinda agree with takinflight, but sporadically.

Watch Daigo play street fighter 4. He uses Ryu, but he goes back and forth between careful, precise play, and “fuck it, Shoryuken.” He’s wildly unpredictable. Sometimes you want to use Kongo 12 times in a row, sometimes you will never use it at all. It’s really strong, but really bad, too. It’s also match-up specific. You don’t wanna Kongo too much vs. someone like Adon; the risk-vs-reward isn’t really in your favor.

Kongo loses effectiveness and usefulness as your opponents improve, and that can’t be ignored. Low-level Gouken players (and even mid-level ones, like me, at ~2200 pp) love to do stuff like Sweep and immediately Parry, because bad players who don’t know that Gouken’s sweep isn’t really punishable will hit themselves every time trying to punish your sweep. Stuff like this stops working. Also, anyone who knows the Gouken match-up will often switch back and forth between grabbing and an option-select low meaty on your wake-up; this 50-50 of sorts exploits the weakness of EX Tatsu (not hitting crouching dudes) and the weakness of Parry (being ineffective vs grabs).

Like DEK/SkyAkuma said, it is probably best used at higher level play offensively as an anti-poke of sorts, rather than as a wake-up option or as an anti-air. Empty jump grab has a tendency to blow up Gouken players who rely too much on Kongo.


#11

Interesting. I must admit I never used kongo in my poking game, but the idea that instead of being hit/knocked down you send the opponent flying…it’s still a lot of guessing though? Is it worth burning a bar?
The fact that EX Tatsu is getting better is what makes me worried about Kongo since after all it is the one move that is completely unique to Gouken and it would be a shame for it to grow even more unused than it seems to be right now :frowning: There tend to be other options than Kongo in a lot of situations. Gouken has amazing anti air normals and I really never need Kongo as an anti air unless I fall asleep and react to the jump super late. I do tend to try Kongo safe jumps, though. Which is what bites me in the end as I get, you guessed it, empty jumped and thrown :smiley: Aww, the old man really needs a better backdash…


#12

If some one is Focus attacking you, either do light strings or cancel into mp kongo.

It probably works better on Dudley and Cody players b/c there focus attacks have stupid range,


#13

use all tools, if not just once a match at the least


#14

It’s not clear to me why you’d cancel a normal into kongo. It seems to me that all you would be doing is reducing the the number of active kongo frames available for use, as the opponent would be in block/hit stun at first. It only makes any sense at all to me if the move is punishable, cancelable, and leaves you close enough that they would want to be pushing buttons. The only two that are like that are cr.mk and cr.hp. People don’t generally think to punish these. The only scenario I can think of is cammy will sometimes cannon drill to get past a fb cancel, but doesn’t that get armor break at that point?

Am I missing something?


#15

You can cancel kongo from a normal for hyper armour characters aka balrogs Abel’s etc…


#16

That would be one situation, but I think it may be very situational in that you had to have already expected a focus or you have very quick reactions. I was thinking something along the same lines as artificeren where cancelling into kongo probably would’ve went way past the opponent’s head before they register the move being executed and executing an attack of their own… or maybe I just play with too many people that respect blockstrings.


#17

Cancel into kongo to beat the level 1/2 focus attack IAM was talking about. I do it at least once a match.

As you’re throwing out a poke, lets say cr.mp and someone focuses, instead of cancelling immediately in to ex tatsu to break, we can cancel into kongo for a meterless punish. Only downfall is if your opponent holds the focus and crumples you in your recovery but I’ve never seen that happen. The whole exchange happens so quickly and its sound/visual instinct to let go of your focus when your opponent hits your focus with a normal. Its almost impossible to see the normal hit your focus, then see the kongo cancel because you’re already letting go. To keep holding focus would have to be your gameplan from the start.

And if you’re consistently breaking focuses with the ex tatsu punish, holding focus to bait a kongo cancel will not be anyones gameplan, ever.


#18

fair enough. So you are saying that an lp.palm cancel is too slow? I don’t remember ever seeing lp.palm get beat, but I suppose it’s possible?


#19

Its definitely possible but if Im not mistaken it has 9 frames of startup and there’s no hitstun on focuses. I’m sure it’ll work but I’d definitely put that third on the list of things I’d cancel with 1st being ex tatsu because its fully invincible and second being kongo.


#20

Do all focus attacks get beat by MP Kongo?