How to land Ultra 2

balrog

#1

Hey guys,

I’ve noticed that although some of you felt enthused about Ultra 2 when it was first announced, today you don’t have faith in it as it proved almost impossible to land. I only play Ultra 2 and I have a secret tip to help you guys land it.

First of all, let me remind you this basic setup :

Dash Swing Blow -> cancel Focus Attack level 2 -> Ultra 2.

The FA Lvl 2 doesn’t connect on the following characters if they are crouching (as the setup implies they are) : Ken, Viper, Cammy.

The focus attack does not connect, not because of their hitboxes themselves, but because of how the push back of the overhead affects them.

Indeed, some crouching characters require specific delays to help the push back reduce in order for the FA to connect. This is the case for Akuma. You need to wait just a bit before releasing the focus attack, otherwise Akuma’s hitbox won’t recover enough from the push back to be in the FA range.

That said, you realize that now your main focus is landing a dash overhead. Here’s a golden setup that I’ve tried many times on many experimented players. It worked 80% of the time and requires a jump in :

Jump in HP -> cr.MP -> light Dash Swing Blow

Jump HP enables Rog to perform a deep hit, that’s why it must no be confused with jump HK for this setup.
Cr.Mp inflicts the opponent 13 frames of blockstun and 16 frames of hitstun.

The reason why these two have to be executed together is that, when the cr.MP gets canceled with a dash overhead, Balrog suffers no push back from the jump in. This way, the dash overhead takes only 22 frames to launch (as he doesn’t have to “dash” first).

What this means is that this setup leaves your opponent with either 9 frames or 6 frames to react to the overhead.

It is much faster than what these numbers may seem to you, just give it a try in training. It also works as a frame-trap, and most of the time it will work that way on block (cr.LK needs 4 frames to activate, leaving your opponent with either 5 frames or 2 frames to actually counter the overhead).

As this setup should only be tried with 2 EX meter, for it is used to setup the Ultra 2, if the opponent ever blocks the overhead, just cancel it with a backdash and it will be safe either way.

If you hit both the jump in and the follow-up with the cr.MP > dash overhead > FA 2 > U2, not only will it inflict your opponent an average of 550 dmg, but it will also cause an average of 900 of stun (both values depending on stamina damage reduce).

Once again, see it for yourself, give it a try in training :slight_smile:


#2

why pick U2 in the first place


#3

Why not ?

Why does Itabashi pick Gief’s Ultra 2 when every random person on Earth thinks U1 ftw ?
Why does Amiyu pick Gen’s Ultra 2 when Ultra 1 proves to be so useful most of the time as Xian said during EVO ?

The reason is that at some point, and especially against high level players, not necessarily top players but high level players, you need to stop thinking about how the world wants you to play, and think more about reinventing your character gameplay and how to make that skillful - big - bold move that Itabashi and Amiyu made.


#4

Don’t be a fool, so because Amiyu picks ultra 2 so you will pick ultra 2, relating to matchups and stuff those ultra you mention are used as a deterent, now tell me what balrog U2 does? STUN? Balrog hits hard in the first place and can stun you without relying on ultra, Landing U1 in pretty much a guranteed corner situation for your opponent. so I aslk again WHY WOULD YOU PICK U2? if you want to limit your Rog play to appear top tier then that’s your pick. and FYI Amiyu picks U2 so they will respect his jump ins.


#5

Pick U2 for the 1 frame command grab, 399 dmg and 700 stun. Any question ?

Like I said, Amiyu and Itabashi always have good reasons to do what they do, no matter how bold, because after all, they’re top players so it must somehow be legit.

What you’re really asking is not why pick U2, but why would you pick U2 when players like Maeda Taison, Pamyu, -R- and PR Rog don’t ? Those same people who taught you that dash Ultra 1 was actually possible, who taught you 90% of Rog’s match-ups and punishes, and who basically proved that Rog was one of the top tier characters.

That said, you will definitely consider playing U2 when some Rog player gets top 8 with it. The saddest part being that you will do so, not because you’ve ever given a damn shit about its properties or setups, but because someone took care of that job for you and made it look legit.

Seriously dude, why don’t you contribute to this discussion, should it be pointless as you made clear you wouldn’t ever consider using it, instead of questioning the topic itself with that bourgeois attitude of yours ?


#6

i’ll post here since this is the most current one.

My reply to the other thread you made:
i’m almost 100% positive the U2 cancel was not an armor cancel, but a focus attack cancelled immediately into U2. Didn’t turn yellow, but there was the sound of armor being met with contact. Also during this video the motion was a 720 versus 2xHCB. In the past i believed that it would be easier with hcb since you should theoretically be able to buffer the motion like Uriens should tackle xx aegis in third strike. But i haven’t been successful, nor have I put a lot of time in.

It’s general utility is pretty moot since rog doesn’t gain any extra range with it, focus attack dash cancel U2 has more practical utility IMO. As in:
[media=youtube]UIW4f4DgJFs[/media]

My reply to this thread:
U2 is useful, but it was nerfed in enough ways to not really be a game changer in 95% of all of Rog’s matches. The most practical uses of U2 involve punishing all strengths of Dudley’s machine gun blow (and generally preventing any of his wakeup shenanigans with OHs and lows) and punishing non lk.dan kicks. AFAIK, that’s IT. I use U2 a lot and it can sometimes provide something else for them to be worried about because it is a threat, but in general. I don’t think anyone’s found a way to play rog that makes U2 better than U1. I’ve used it in a shit ton of matches, and i’ve gotten a stun off of it ONCE. It’s fuckin’ awesome, but it’s extremely unlikely that you’ll land it.

Also the setup you mentioned is nice, but can be beat with a throw. At least in Houston, everyone throws overheads. Why burn two bars and revenge meter for 500 dmg, 700 stun, and NO OKI? the opponent recovers as soon as Balrog, so he gets no opportunity to use pressure or maintain that 700 stun, as we know that although it’s hard to land, it’s even harder to tick throw into because it’s 0+1 and they can jump after the freeze. Balrog’s damage potential and OKI off of a headbutt is infinitely better than his OKI after U2.

Oh, I forgot this as well. This is another practical use for U2. U2 generally DESTROYS any type of jump in meaty low, jump in meaty throw, jump in block mix up game used by Shotos. U2 beats all of that a seen here @7:00
[media=youtube]waYDY8Hor-k[/media]

To re-iterate, i’m not disagreeing with you on it’s utility. I’m just saying that there’s a reason its not used a lot, and it’s not necessarily because it’s not good, it’s because it doesn’t have any potential.


#7

Wow, thanks for your answer 3nigmat1c !

Except for armour cancel, you’re right in pretty much everything you say IMO.

Are you sure it’s not armour cancel but FADC U2 ?

Pay close attention to the video : he reversaled his wake-up. Unless I’ve been missing something, I don’t think there’s any way you can reversal a focus attack ? Plus, I don’t see any dash forward… However fast you input the Ultra command, there should be a dash, I don’t think you can cancel anything off of a focus attack but dashes, right ?

As for Ultra 2, so far I haven’t used it much as a punish because as silly as it may sound, I think that in such cases I can’t just input the command to fully benefit from its 1 frame start-up. Seriously, that command is just too hard (and takes too long) to input as a reversal in most situations. The only instance being appropriate for it that I can think of is the one you mentioned, that’s to say Dudley block-stringy special moves as they leave you plenty of time to execute the reversal.

Like Ken’s toward medium kick leaves him at -2 when it is not correctly spaced. I challenge anyone here to reversal that move with Ultra 2! (same thing applies to Sagat EX tiger knee)

What I’m trying to say is that considering U2 as a tool designed for punishing other characters’ moves is a fool’s errand.

In my opinion, it has to be used as an offensive tool and I’m sure it’s no coincidence that Capcom reduced the dash overhead blow back that enables cr.MP and FA Lvl 2 to connect on most characters.

Is worth of burning 2 meters for it ?

Considering Rog is, along with Dan and Seth, one of the characters that easily build up meter, I’m not sure if you could consider two meters as a potential loss. Just check out the amount of blocked EX dash punches Pamyu burns during a match.

That said, Overhead > FA Lvl 2 provides with mixups either way you use it (just like anything that starts off of a crumple).

All in all, the reason why I’m convinced that U2 should be used as an offensive tool is that, like you said, it resets Rog’s position at no advantage after it is executed.

So maybe the 700 stun aren’t supposed to build up stun but to add up to already built up stun.

The drawbacks of U2 is that it involves a more offensive and risky gameplay.

If you decide to go with the overhead, you’ll still have to land it and, no matter the setup, it won’t ever be guaranteed in any way (unless you use that special setup of mine :stuck_out_tongue: ).

If you decide to use it as a trap, it will require careful observation of your opponent tech-throw and meaty.

For offensive traps, your opponent HAS TO be in one of these cases :

J.HK > delay > U2
J.HK > jab > U2
J.HK > jab > delay U2

jab > jab > U2
jab > delay > U2
jab > jab > jab > walk up > U2

All of these traps require training. Since v.2012, forward mention can now only be input once, at the very beginning of the command. Plus, you don’t have to input diagonals (but you’ll have to chose when performing the second HCB, if you choose to go from forward again or forward-diagonal).


#8

U2…does something similar to what all of the other U2’s did to the other characters that got them: gave them something to supplement a weakness inherent to their character. For example, Gief’s U2 gave him an invincible air throw, something he had a lot of trouble with: characters who could attack safely from the air. Now against certain matchups, gief had an answers to those safer aerial attacks.

U2 gives Balrog an option, like TAP, that doesn’t go away when he gets crossed up. I disagree when you say that it should be used offensively and NOT for punishes. Generally, you can use it offensively because to actually land it off an attack that doesn’t crumple (or after a stun), the opponent needs to be close to you, PLANTED on the ground, and in the middle of an animation thats not invincible. Given the little invincibility on U2, it’s crap range, and the fact that they can perform inputs after the flash make all of these a requirement. You can’t forget that U2 freezes and darkens the screen for 5s, practically saying “HEY…I’M GOING TO PERFORM A 1F GRAB ON YOU, IF YOU WANT TO JUMP…HOLD UP”. In 100% of every tick throw setup, normal throws are better because they don’t announce themselves.

In the setups you mentioned, they don’t work well with U2 because of the above. You have to delay significantly, making the input harder (since you can’t buffer the motion in the jump) and also making it much more difficult to land because your opponent will be doing something very obvious in those situations like: early crouch-teching, late crouch-teching, blocking, stand-teching. delayed U2 will only win against late crouch-tech, but will lose against stand-techs, early crouch-techs, and mashing. Obviously if they’re blocking they can just hold up during the freeze for a big punish, OR if they suspected a frame-trap or a tick throw like usual, they may mash DP making it less likely that a U2 attempt would be successful.

So yes, if you can read your opponent and gauge when you think they will be pressing unsafe buttons, you can blow up all kinds of stuff with U2. TRUE. But the best way, the 100% way of landing U2 is punishes. Punishes for unsafe attacks, punishes for unsafe meaties, punishes with landing frames etc. It’s overlooked because it requires so much knowledge/forethought to be effective. OH, FA lvl2, U2 costs two bars and revenge meter for about 500dmg, 600 stun. The only way to make U2 worth it is if you get it raw so you get full damage, and either you stun them completely OR they’re just about stunned and you can land the first blocked/hit attack to maintain it. Doing it in a combo like that is wasteful. Take into consideration the second METERLESS combo (ex.ru isn’t necessary) combo:
[media=youtube]-YfmFYWfXes[/media]
I used ex.ru, but it’s unnecessary. Balrog stuns a character in six hits, causing minimal or similar damage scaling as if he hit with U2. True it’s a meaty TAP but TAP only does 200 stun. This is an example of the type of OKI Balrog gets after headbutt versus U2. Even if they block the TAP, they’re stuck with the stun previously given and have to create space. Balrog has other combos that can net similar damage like: distanced OH, cr.mp xx ex.ru, cr.lp, cr.mp xx ex.ru, cr.lp etc which give you an opportunity to go for mk.ru for a tick throw, cr.lp, st.lp, cr.hk or cr.lp, cr.mp xx hp.hb and that OKI etc. Balrog has the tools to stun and they’re much more flexible than U2.

In general, i think that Balrog with U2 has to be played more like Bison because U2 doesn’t have any kind of comeback factor, but it has the distinct ability to blow up mistakes heavier than alot of other moves. So you pick U2, you get to walk forward alot and you don’t need to abuse headbutt because you don’t get anything significant off of it aside from OKI. You play ultra solid and you will probably win without ever having to use U2, you just keep it in your pocket.

And in terms of trouble inputting, you always do the inputs during blockstun, not from neutral. In AE (I could be wrong), they made attack restriction on 2xhcb a bit harder than in super, Usually what happens is that you’re not going all the way to the last back position, just exaggerate it or do it a bit slower. IF you’re in blockstun attempting to do it as a reversal, you have all the time in the world.


#9

I agree with you, although I still think that using U2 exclusively for punishing normal and special moves is made too difficult because of the 2 HCB. Not only does it restrict its use to only a few of Rog’s match-ups, but it also involves complete mastery of spacing (because of how strict the ultra range is) and ability to reversal.

As for using it offensively, you’re right, the risk is really high as there is no guaranteed way you can bait and catch your opponent. Although I’ve never used it during tournaments (I don’t feel confident enough with it for now), on the Xbox live, where I do most of my training, baiting tech-throws, cr.MK and what not, is a pretty much guaranteed way to nail U2, all the more than the greater the player the higher the success rate (that is so true).

About damage outputs comparison, that nice setup of yours (meaty TAP) involves a factor of randomness (I can’t figure out how a decent player could not block that) that doesn’t make it quite reliable, as far as stun comparison is concerned. Although if there is any way you can OS ultra 1 in case of backdash, it remains a very nice setup that I had never heard of! Thanks!

You can’t get anything off of a Dash Swing Blow that is more damaging than Dash Overhead > Fa Lvl 2 > Ultra 2, I’m pretty sure about that! It’s about 440 dmg (I don’t remember the exact value). It beats anything from Dash Overhead > Fa Lvl 2 > Cl.HK > cr.MP > RU to Dash Overhead > cr.MP > Headbutt > Ultra 1.

Ultra 2 doesn’t stand a chance versus Ultra 1 if you don’t play the bait game! Just like Gief and Hawk’s Ultra 1 can’t afford not taking a risk (unless you’re Vangief and you’ve mastered how to pull it out flat) to get it nailed.

And I’m sure you guys have already noticed that Balrog’s offensive gameplay (not zoning) is nothing but baits, at least, versus decent players. Throw-traps, throw-tech counter cr.MP > dash straight / cr.LK > dash straight, to name a few. If we all pretty much tend to have our opponent in the corner and harass them with baits, that’s because we’ve all realised that otherwhise we might just never get past that guard.

I’ll say it again, I feel 90% sure that Ultra 2 has to be used in an offensive way. It makes you drop your charges and play a “standing” walking Rog, quite like Ryu and Sagat match-ups forces you to.


#10

Hey enig I see your kinda playing a standing balrog. Have you tried the tips i gave in the seth akuma MU


#11

I want to use U2 and I wish someone would make a video about it. Wasnt it possible to do Ex upper into U2 at one point


#12

Haven’t really been playing as of late, but FourWude (a Houston Akuma player) seems to be getting back into the game so i might get some practice there. But generally against Sakura if you’re down+backing it and she’s not in the corner, you’re giving her free opportunities to get in, that’s generally why i’m standing mid-screen against her. Also her cr.mk owns almost all of Balrog’s long distance options.

no. ex.ru is +4 on hit, -1 on block, so you can “tick” throw into it, but because its a throw you can only combo into it after a crumple. Had it more active frames we might be able to pull off a setup like Dhalsim:
[media=youtube]yDk1manCe8Q[/media]
@10:39/@11:28 - When you’re in this setup, you have to hold up after you come in contact with the fireball grounded since U2 is still active once you recover on hit or block from the fireball. You can avoid this by holding up after blocking or being hit or being hit by the fireball airborne so you air reset. Dhalsim’s U2 can only connect when you’re grounded.


#13

Sorry this is a bit back in the thread but it’s pretty important, Thawk and others ultra is 1+0. Balrog’s is 0+1, meaning it’s just not that good.
You’re making it sound a lot better than it is when you say 1 frame command grab.


#14

to piggy back off of this, it is still a 1f command grab, but this is only really true when used as a punish (as it can punish some attacks that are only -1)


#15

^makes sense.

Still if they’re neutral when you start the ultra, they can just hold up.
where as if it’s a true “1 frame ultra”(is there some other definition for this?) you can’t just hold up.

correct?


#16

well 1+0 means that the startup is before the flash, where 0+1 means the startup is after the flash. So 1f ultra just means that it starts up in 1f, where 1+0 or 0+1 determine if the opponent can move after the flash if at neutral. For example rogs ultra is 1+7 give or take, so opponents have 7f after the flash for inputs if at neutral.