How to tell if your Blackheart sucks

Classic Fighting Games Marvel VS Capcom 2
#1

This thread might get mistaken for a troll, but I think that in discussing what BH is really capable of any more, there are so many bad habits that BHs around the country have gotten into that I would tend to say that most of them suck. So here’s a simple litmus test to determine whether or not your BH sucks.

  1. Do you think sj. rh and inferno/HOD are BH’s two main moves? (If you answer “yes” in whole or in part, your BH sucks.)

  2. Are you aware that BH’s tail represents one of the quickest range pokes in the game? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

  3. Do most characters usually survive your first solid hit with BH? (If you answer “yes”, then your BH probably sucks… I know of at least two team schemes where BH should be killing people on the first solid hit, with only a very few exceptions. BH/Storm is arguably an exception that can get you out of jail here.)

  4. Do you super jump to throw random demons a lot? (If you answer “yes”, your BH sucks. The only matchup where this is really a good idea is against another BH.)

  5. Do you have a serious application for air judgment day against top tier chars? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

  6. Do you play BH on a team where he’s got a serious DHC to work with? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks unless it’s because the team has Cable on it, in which case you get a “get out of jail free” card unless you answered “yes” to question 3.)

  7. Does your BH get rushed down for giggles? (If you answer “yes”, your BH sucks.)

  8. Do you know at least two or three different ways to do serious damage to Cable, without getting shot in retaliation? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

Any questions?

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#2

yeah, HOW do I get to the point where I DO NOT suck w/ BH??? :slight_smile:

tips are appreciated, since i’m a BH newb. (only tried to start playing him this weekend. :o)

#3

instead of telling us how we suck tell us how to do those things

#4

vids?

#5

Could you tell us how to be better BH player? Cause I obivously failed the test:confused:

#6

Okay, a few tips on how to avoid the suckage side of the answers to the above questions…

  1. My main moves I use with BH are j. fierce (usually supplemented with Sent-Y), sj. jab, and his short both in the air and standing and crouching on the ground. The most common times I use sj. rh at all is after a sj. jab/strong counterattacking a rush char going over the top, or if I know the opposing char is in some way commited to staying below me (which actually is a superset of the first case). I only use inferno/HOD if I know it’s going to hit or occasionally in endgame situations to chip. I never use it as a general chipping weapon unless I’ve got Doom behind BH and I’ve got an opponent pinned between the rocks and the corner wall.

  2. Just so you know… BH’s st. short (the tail) reaches just a little shy of half the screen away. Probably right around 40-45%. His cr. short is not much shorter. His air short is a little less reaching than his air jab, so the main reason I’ll use the short is if I’ve got an opponent below me. But either way, BH’s tail has sick, sick range for the amount of speed it has, better than basically any quick poke this side of Dhalsim and with a lot more damage potential from combos. You can literally block a launcher from most chars and retaliate with pokes into your AAA of choice into inferno/HOD, infinite, and/or DHC.

  3. If you are playing BH/Cable/Cyclops, anything that leads to a Cyclops hit (whether it’s juggling someone who’s jumped into demons, retaliating for a poke, them running into Cyclops cold, or whatever) should lead to an infinite which you then finish off by tagging in Cable on the bouncing character, and from there you shoot them the rest of the way to death. If you are playing BH/Sentinel/Commando, there are numerous ways to DHC HOD (with or without inferno) into HSF, most of which will be fatal in most practical cases. If you’ve got BH/Storm/something and set up an inferno/HOD there, you can DHC to hail as well… this won’t kill anybody without a significant amount of extra damage additionally inflicted before or after it, but it’s useful enough and simpler to execute than DHCs to HSF or infinites into Cable tags, so it can be forgiven.

  4. Don’t do this unless you know your opponent can’t either go under you or up with you or whatever. I don’t even super jump for offense at all except on Sentinel or Cable, and even then I’m doing it in cases where I know they’ll have a reason not to go up with me. About the only char I’ll do any kind of half-random sj. rh on is another BH.

  5. If you get over the top of either Cable or Sentinel doing their respective horizontal supers, probably on one of your assists, air judgment day is a lot more useful than it looks like. It’s also very easy to DHC into hail, HSF, or whatever.

  6. Serious DHCs here can be anything from BH/Sent-A inferno/HOD DHC plasma storm (Sentinel will have enough time to both assist and DHC, BH/IM-or-Cyclops/Sentinel inferno/HOD DHC proton cannon/MOB DHC HSF (either one of which works… pretty easy to do), BH/Storm/Sentinel st. rh/drones/HOD DHC hail (credit to Viscant for this one), BH/Sent with any third char st. rh/drones/HOD DHC HSF (variant on Viscant’s combo, and yeah, the HSF does work if you time it so that Sentinel has enough time to get out on the assist and then come back in on the DHC) or whatever. If you can do the infinite into Cable tag off of BH/Cyclops (which fills a non-DHC condition of question 3) you needn’t worry about this question… BH still can kill and the means are different than a DHC. I don’t really care for BH/Cable/Cyclops myself because I think BH has more use for a projectile assist than he does for Cable behind him for most matchups. It might help him against an opposing Cable some, but I think stuff like drones or rocks helps him against the rush more than a counter-AHVB will help him against another Cable.

  7. With j. fierce, drones, and Commando around, BH should rarely, if ever, worry about getting rushed. With Cyclops instead of drones and Commando it’s potentially hard to rush him down but I’d still prefer having Sentinel back there, especially since BH/Cable/Cyclops suffers the same snapback worries as Team Scrub does against Magneto, whereas BH/Sent/Commando doesn’t. (read: free DHC) Getting your assist char snapped in with no safe way to get out so that he gets rushed down is just as bad as getting your BH rushed down for purposes of this question.

  8. Pick a DHC from the list in question #6, or the infinite into Cable tag into blow them the hell away… or don’t tag Cable and just do the infinite, maybe reset it. If you don’t want to DHC, take an assist that hits a char up to about chest level on BH and do judgment day. No inferno. I know for a fact that Sent-A sets this up fine. It’s possible that Psylocke might. st. rh into Sent-Y into judgment day will also work without needing a DHC. There’s also hitting into Cyclops and do a single sj. rh as though you were going to start the infinite, but instead airdash, land next to where Cable is bouncing by your head, and do inferno/armageddon. The non-DHC, non-infinite-into-tag combos all do about 50% damage anywhere on the screen (except for the st. rh/drones/JD one, which is more like 60-70%), and all of them are perfectly Cable-safe to hit people with.

There are a few other trade secrets here that I’m keeping close to the vest, but even this much is still a lot more BH knowledge than most people know. There are a lot more DHC possibilities out there (I haven’t even given out the one that I use most often myself) and a few other things BH can do, some of which I know and I’m keeping secret and a number that I may not even have discovered yet myself.

For purposes of video, Alex Valle’s BH remains the one that’s been put on commonly available video that gives the best idea of how to play him on a positional level. Study that, and start from there. Don’t stop your tinkering with just that, though, because if you look at the videos, even his BH was on the wrong end of a number of the “suck” questions I’m posing here. Nothing his BH did on a reproducible basis ever came anywhere near 100% damage, he didn’t have a reliable way of doing more than about 25% damage to Cable without getting shot unless he was in the corner, he had no reliable DHCs, and he threw a few too many sj. rhs for my tastes these days as well. My understanding is that he threw fewer sj. rhs and used BH’s pokes more post-B5, but I don’t know that he ever fixed any of the other issues. However, just on pure sound positioning, I still have to put his BH on the pedestal as the starting point you should strive for.

Don’t feel bad if you blew chunks on the test. It’s my personal opinion that BH is considered so bad these days because nobody really knows any of this stuff… i.e. the BHs people are judging by are on the wrong side of most or all of these litmus test questions.

#7

i got some right but, in battle when i’m gettin rushed down or something i tend to make some of these mistakes more than i know.Doing random sj, fp demon or hk demons. Which i have greatly decreased but.

I think its a great idea to put my aim on here that way i can share some vids of my recent tournies and u can make a list of my mistakes. My friend plays a really good Bh. but being a teacher he is not the greatest. And i recently improved alot by going to this thread. But my Aim is aDeoSaoBeoVay

If u got any bh vids or even simple tips i’ll be more than happy to take it.

#8

a lot of rushdown people can stand to not be doing something nowadays so becareful, more so then you use to be. first i would advise that you use capcom for a while with bh if you arent already, cause face it, he is an anti rushdown god as a helper and hands down, bhs best assist. cykes doesnt work too bad though, but doesnt set up as easy for infernoxxhod and you can give bh the ability to not only counter assist with ease, but put up a nice wall to block /hide behind when they are above you. when fighting mags i tend not to super jump a whole hell of a lot. i use fp demons like crazy and tails more then anything.

#9

I severly encourage taking up Stilts advice on the matter. This man is the only one I consider decond to in Blackheart. I watched him play Blackheart when I first started playing, and he has shown me alot just by watching, and him teaching my person to person. This guy know’s what he is talking about and still have yet to play him BlackHeart vs. BlackHeart.

Heh, in any case, definatly listen to what he has got to say, cause I agree 100% with what his veiws are.

Good Shit Eric!!!

-Dizznurty:cool:

#10

_Blitz:Cyclops sets up everything Capcom does and also sets up the infinite. You can set up the infinite with Capcom too, but it’s extremely difficult [almost impractical…].

Stiltman knows his shit. I can tell. This is probably the best advice I’ve seen on how to operate BH on the net from anyone ever.

Here’s how I scored.

I got questions 3 and 5 wrong, and those were only on a technicality.

3 Do most characters usually survive your first hit?

Yes. This is mainly a mercy and a time of the hit thing. I usually land the clean hit so early in the match that tagging in Cable or heavy DHCs aren’t a practical option for me that hit. BH-Cyc can destroy half health off a Cyc hit into infinite into an AC. After that, there are harassment techniques that can put the victim at risk of immediately going back into the infinite. NOW I have enough meter for the kill DHC and tag in Cable combos to be practical.

5 Did you have a use for the air JD vs Top tier?

No. Actually I did have potential uses for it, but only on a sub-conscious level. You just brought it to a conscious level for me. Thanks Stilt.
In most of those situations where the JD was usable for me, I could just as easily have infinited their ass then tagged in Cable, Mags, or if I could use him better, Ironman. That character dies bypassing my need for the JD somewhat, but not completely. I’d have to JD someone like Sentinel. Further exploration is warranted.

Okay. Stilt, please PM me with the secrets you held out on in the litmus test answers. I’ll keep them secret.

#11

yeah i been trying to find a better way of using air jd. If only thier was a easy air combo into it huh? lolz. Oh i’m working on a Bh vid which might not consist of me playing but Austin, tx is bh country even lil kids know to fear bh. So lets see how i do with this vid. If it turns out to be a bad combo vid, or bh vid just sit back and enjoy the music. :stuck_out_tongue:

#12

Seriously, even though I didn’t quite pass the litmus test, I’m still the only competitive dedicated Blackheart player left in SoCal since Jaminis retired. I’m going to just examine this list for the moment.

  1. Superjump roundhouse is an important BH move, because it’s his primary way to cover assists. If you use BH/Guile, it’s the ONLY way to cover that assist. The important thing isn’t so much attacking with the demons as in giving the opponent something additional to maneuver around, making getting underneath BH impractical. As for inferno xx HOD, you shouldn’t deny its power to keep people from superjumping too much, as well as to throw some occasional chipping into the match to keep it balanced. Jump fierce and his light attacks are very important moves too.

  2. Of course. In the air, though, jump jab is usually more useful than jump short. A lot of launchers beat jump short anyway, especially from a superjump (BH doesn’t have much of a way to capitalize on landing a superjump short on a grounded opponent).

  3. OK, BH/Cable/Cyclops I can understand, except you usually land Cyclops off of defensive hits and unless you want to use meter to get damage right away, you can’t usually make the most of them because blockstun will keep you from getting over them in time to do the infinite. BH/Sent I’m still not quite seeing; Storm/Sent lands 70 points of damage before Sentinel DHCs at most, so how does 44 points before Sent lead to death?

  4. If you’re random at all you probably suck. Everyone thinks Soo’s Magneto is random, but careful observation shows that to be a Big Lie ™. Random people lose, period.

  5. Air judgement on whiffed HSF or AHVBs.

  6. Good DHCs are a fundamental part of any good team.

  7. Blackheart is the hardest character to rush in the game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not fighting good Blackhearts. Between demons for long distance and tails of Jesus/chops up close, he’s a pain in the ass. Now if you fuck up and get HIT, it’s bootstrap time.

  8. If I don’t have Cyclops, A-Magneto or A-Sent, not practically. BH/Sent DHC works for damage, though.

#13

Hmm, I failed 3 and 5 too. Seems to be a common problem (At least I know my Blackheart doesn’t suck as much as I thought now :slight_smile: ).

#14

I’m happy to say my BH doesn’t suck :cool: BTW you left out a few test:

  1. Do you know GB using assists or just blackheart? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

  2. Can you connect the infinite from a J.FP demons? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

  3. Do you know at least two extremely good uses for BH’s ground dash? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks)

  4. Can you connect the infinite from ANY RH demon that connects on an opponent who is in the air? (If you answer “no”, your BH sucks.)

#15

[quote]
*Originally posted by StiltMan *
**Okay, a few tips on how to avoid the suckage side of the answers to the above questions…

  1. If you are playing BH/Cable/Cyclops, anything that leads to a Cyclops hit (whether it’s juggling someone who’s jumped into demons, retaliating for a poke, them running into Cyclops cold, or whatever) should lead to an infinite which you then finish off by tagging in Cable on the bouncing character, and from there you shoot them the rest of the way to death. If you are playing BH/Sentinel/Commando, there are numerous ways to DHC HOD (with or without inferno) into HSF, most of which will be fatal in most practical cases. If you’ve got BH/Storm/something and set up an inferno/HOD there, you can DHC to hail as well… this won’t kill anybody without a significant amount of extra damage additionally inflicted before or after it, but it’s useful enough and simpler to execute than DHCs to HSF or infinites into Cable tags, so it can be forgiven.

I like what you said here but I’ve found that BH’s standing JD is much better for DHCing into HSF or Hailstorm. It does more damage and you can easily keep the combo going with either Sentinel (ofcourse that’s easy) OR storm b/c you can time this and set the opponent up for an otg into a cross up or whatever you wishes desire.

#16

[quote]
*Originally posted by Dirty *

Heh, in any case, definatly listen to what he has got to say, cause I agree 100% with what his veiws are.

I have to agree 100% with you on this comment. It’s about time that I’ve found someone representin BH the right way. No offense to the so-so players out there. Keep practicing. I couldn’t have said what he said any better myself.

#17

Commando is indeed a good assist but I advise everyone who likes BH to just work on their defense and use cyclops. BH is so much more dangerous with him b/c any attack that connect should equal a dead character or at least 75% damage. And every dead character, would then lead up to a guard break and another dead character or at least 75% damage. Also if you’re worried about connecting inferno/HoD from an assist, noone beats the cyclops assist. If timed right you connect connect multiple infernos b4 even doing the HoD. I tend to connect 6 from a cyclops assist b4 I get bored and cancel and/or go for the infinite.

#18

Okay on this end I did worse.

9-10 Passed narrowly. 11 narrow fail. I only had uses on a subconscious level. 12 Stalemate. If I use the flying hk, I pass but if you actually meant standing hk I failed.

The owness is on you now.

Please post the answers to ALL the litmus tests. That way we can fix whatever problems we have in our arsenals [if any] with our BH use.

#19

Re: Re: How to tell if your Blackheart sucks…

Actually I WAS talking about connecting the FLYING RH into the infinite in 12. But just let it be know that you can even connect the standing RH into the infinite as well. There’s two ways of doing it (that I know of). One way I can do all the time and the other was first done completely on accident and is now a work in progress to do it all the time.
As for 12 I’ll give you just a couple of the many uses. For all those who have trouble with Cable users. Just dash whenever they super jump or try to play cheap and fire their gun while calling out any assist. you’ll go under EVERYTHING that they’re sending out and get to punish them before they can recover. For the SJing cable I just dash and then SJ throw (similar to how combofiend does it) and for the repeated gun shot cable users. Just dash and press d.lk, d.lk w/ assist (hopefully cyclops), start infinite. That’ll teach that loser :lol:

#20

I was just curious as to how many BH users out there use his regular jump infinite. I’m the only one that I’ve seen use it. But it’s far better than the SJ version and I can’t see myself being the only one that’s doing it.