How to transition mindsets


#1

If you are confused by the title this is what I mean:
Playing offline, I think about the match-up, attempt to read the other player, look out for certain moves, zoning, etc.
Playing online, I don’t know what to expect other then random jumping, tick throws, etc. (which is good, i guess in someways.)

Now here’s the problem, when I go online, I try to practice good habits, from playing offline, but they don’t work at all. This leads to frustration, and losing to “scrub tactics”, and now I believe that this is one of the things that are restricting me from moving foward in Street Fighter (frustration), because I know I have the potential to play at very high-levels, but i’m losing to scruby, mashed DPs, etc, because i’m overthinking the match, and I know these moves wouldn’t work in an offline enviroment.

Can anybody help me overcome these tactics, and stop overthinking the match?


#2

I’m. Still confused actually. This is one of things that bewilders me and apparently you: why do people treat offline and online as different animals? Things like throw/DP are not tactics and are hardly mixups. Late tech or just eat the throw if you’re worried about the input being lag eaten. In a way you can treat these kinds of players in the same way you treat the CPU. Keep them out. Win games. Zoning does wonders against players with no footsies. Safe jumps do wonders against DP mashers. Frame traps do wonders against jab mashers. I think a big problem is that people can’t READ these situations quickly. If I do c.lk and then rep a throw but at the last second do a DP most people will get hit. I now know I need to switch up to defensive play to see if I can bait that out. A good player might only do it the once to get me to tighten up. Scrubs usually don’t have intuition. Scrub players should be EASIER to read. They have weak offense that generally relies on DPs and throws instead of tricky mixups. They have weak defense that relies on doing something immediately after waking up. Read accordingly. Be the good player you say you are.

But actually to be clear I want you define good habits for me. If good habits means a 3 way mixup that all loses to DPs. If good habits is non frame tright block strings all the time. If good habits is not teching throws. If good habits is letting them get in on your freely with ‘random jumps’ Then the problem really isn’t them.


#3

To clarify some situations:
Let’s say I get a sweep with Honda. I walk up anticipating a Wake-up DP, but instead I get wake-up kara thrown. I’m basicly underestimating this player.
Another example, let’s say I get sweeped by Yang. I successfully block cross-up dive kick, and he throws me. I again successfully block cross-up dive kick, and he throws me. The Yang repeats this a number of times, now you may think “just tech the throw dumbass.” Well, I’m anticipating some kind of block-string or SOMETHING NEW, other then dk-throw, i’m basicly expecting more from this Yang player.
I can’t seem to figure out which players are repetitive, or not, thus leading to defeat in some cases. This leads me to over-think the match, which could lose me the match

But, onto good habits. Good habits imo are good footsies, good pressure, good reads, i think you get the point.
May I have your opinion on good habits?

Thanks for the helpful infomation though, I will practice safe-jumps, and frame traps, and anticipate wake-up DP, etc.


#4

Tick throws and DP are not scrub tactics…
A scrub would say that stuff is "cheap"
There is a difference between a begginer/“noob” and a scrub. Please remember that. Seems everyone gets this mixed up nowadays, but anyway…

Also, you are playing Honda. He is the epitome of a begginer killer character. Zone out all your opponents and anti air them everytime.When they go to mix you up, throw out ex headbutts and butt slams until they respect you. A begginer player should be dead by the time they learn this, if they ever do.


#5

Yeah, excuse my vocabulary, but as I understand tick-throws are an effective tactic, mashing DPs during links, aren’t so much. As i’ve said before, i’m thinking about the other player too much, and not as much about myself, which for somereason works offline, better then online, and I need help changing mindsets. Also, for the record, i’m not calling any of that cheap.

So, against AA more, and ex-hb and buttslam against mix-ups? Alright then, I’m having trouble against people who mash out DP when I drop links, but I guess that’s execution errors on my part. =/


#6

Nah, its no problem. Its more of something this entire site has mixed up. Moving on…

Mashing DP isnt even a bad tactic unless its baited. Especially if they have meter and can FADC their uppercut. I think like every top player does it at least some of the time. You’re honda though. All you need is jab xx hands, haha. they can mash out during that. Bait those DPs and punish them hard, make them regret it.

And yeah, EX headbutt against mix ups. You can use butt slam if you dont have meter. Thats the best thing about Honda, to me anyway. His reversals are really good and they’re completely safe.


#7

Specific to this situation: try late teching, if they DP you block it, if they grab, you tech, works against all characters without a command grab, idk off the top of my head if yang’s kara throw has longer range than his command grab. you can do this after a safe jump, you can do this after just walking up on their wake up, and it doesn’t end there. this “loses” to wakeup light attacks, but w/e.

What do you mean by “more” here, where I bolded it? More skill? More variation? But you go on to say that a good habit to have is making good reads. Sounds to me like this guy read you like a book and predicted you wouldn’t tech a throw 4, 5 times in a row.

Now to the point of my post: I’m not sure whether this is your mentality or not, but I want you to really think about whether it is or not: there is never ever ever a reason (disregarding lag) that you lost besides getting outplayed. The person was never “too dumb” to outsmart, that’s a huge pet peeve of mine. Maybe they’re too autopilot for your usual tricks to work, but you, as the self-proclaimed smarter player, need to realize this before it’s too late and they win the match. Don’t let yourself off the hook for losses just because that “crappy” Ryu player beat you with jump in shoryuken every single time because “there’s no way he’ll do it again,” because Daigo won’t hesitate to do the exact same thing to you once he figures out that’s how to win. Sorry if this isn’t your mentality, but I’m posting just in case it is.


#8

lol, alright, i’ll keep those in mind, any tips on AA other then porkchop?


#9

separated into parts A, and B.
A. well, I honestly never thought of it like that, thanks for shining some light on that.
B. well, sometimes, I know why I lost (i.e., I failed to get in on Sagat, or I jumped too much againist Ryu), but sometimes it seems like the other player is rolling their face across the stick and I think, what the fuck just happened? everything was just random, i didn’t see anything coming, it doesn’t FEEL like i’m being outplayed (although i may be), but the other person is just too damn random for me to read ANYTHING, and no, I don’t mean Poongko, or Daigo’s boldness, I mean straight out randomness.

Regarding your logic: there is never ever ever a reason (disregarding lag) that you lost besides getting outplayed.
Now that I think about it, this is very true, however, there also may be the luck factor, as in: he didn’t get chipped out enough, and I got ultra-ed to the face.
or, he mis-executed a sonic boom for the first time, leading to a game-winning punish.

There is also the: This game, was not my game factor, where you were outplayed for the moment, but in a run-back, you may possibly beat the other player badly.
Don’t get me wrong, there are times where I am frustrated, and think THAT KEN ONLY MASHED DP. There are also times where I think: Goddamn, I was playing like trash.
I’m trying hard to become a better theory fighter.
I think i’m a theory fighter because when I watch high-level play, I can see a lot of scenarios being played, and them following through.(yes, i know that watching and playing are completely different) But please correct me if i’m wrong. (please don’t be too harsh =X)

Thanks to everyone that has helped me so far :slight_smile:


#10

I wish there was a way I could say this that would make it clear but it really is just a matter of experience. I guess how I would say it is that you lack ‘situational awareness’. I assume you just started so you’re simply not aware of your options. As you play more and learn to beat[or at least play] more and more situations you’ll get more comfortable. I…unfortunately do not know anything about Honda so you’ll have to ask the forums for specifics but I’ll say this: Their wake up is not a binary thing that has only one of two scenarios. Its not I either get/evade throws or DPs. You can stand slightly further away for instance and then do a meaty as they wake up. If they ACTUALLY wakeup karathrow, which is like…woah risky, then a meaty will beat it every time. You can do a meaty crossup and make it difficult for them to DP[although if they’re Ken it is impossible to make it impossible to do] If you’re in a pressure situation and you KNOW they’ll hit a button, nail them with an invincible move. This is my big complaint about people talking about shoryuing out of block strings. If you do something like c.lp .c.lp c. strong, there’s a gap. It can be shoryu’ed. If I know you’ll do so then you’re gonna eat it. You can bait it and that’s where the guess starts. Indeed the best way to deter DPs is to bait them and ruin them.

To use the Yang example: you don’t have to directly beat the throw to escape. You can BD, reversal, jump, late tech etc. If the 4th time he blocks your reversal for instance however, guess what - he’s reading you. This will drive home the point, the things you listed aren’t good habits. They’re good skills to have. Good ‘habits’ are AA properly, not dropping combos, etc. but the word habit implies routine. That there’s something I should do consistently and it’ll have good results. This isn’t the case. Play the player. Eventually you’ll learn to play against a wide variety of players. Does he like to zone me? What do I get in on him? Does he like to DP on wake up? How do I handle that? Does he like to BD constantly? How do I keep him pinned? Is he rushing in constantly? How do I keep him out? Scrubs follow the same pattern, they’re not playing a different game. The things they do are wholly beatable. It IS hard to make a read after a mere one match, but take it as training. Where I’m at all tournies are one and out.

TL;DR: don’t worry, play more. learn more, eventually it’ll come to you.


#11

nj. hp, lp headbutt, butt slam, super, ultra…


#12

Alright, thanks for the tips.
(if this helps anyone trying to help me)
You are right and wrong about "I have just started"
You are wrong, as in, I am very familiar with the game.
However you are right, because I picked up E. Honda recently, from dropping Gen.
Now because Gen and Honda is a HUGE difference, it’s harder for me to adapt to certain situations, because Gen is more agile, but weaker, and Honda is vice-versa.

I know what the other player is going to do, if he’s not too random, or changes their playstyle as in: First round rush, second round turtle (for some reason, idk). I guess I just need to know what to do in those situations.


#13

light hb still viable as AA? i’ve heard other wise.


#14

This is paraphrased from Maj, which means you can take this shit straight to the bank: “If you think back to a game, and you don’t understand what you did wrong, or why you got beat, it’s because you don’t have a good enough understanding of the game. Play more, read more.”

I recommend reading through this in its entirety: http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

It’ll make you a better player and his philosophies are brilliant. Adopt them.

Also, listen to all of these: http://blgaming.com/index.html/_/podcasts/juicy-bits/juicy-bits-season-1-r34

Juicebox is a top Abel, but his tips are for beginners-intermediate players of every character.

Neither of these have anything to do with luck. Don’t let yourself off the hook for underestimating how much health he had or overestimating how much damage your move does. Him not dying from your chip attack is not related to luck, it’s a mistake you made, and so is somebody screwing up an input.

This is true, but it isn’t just because you are propelled by some cosmic force to lose certain games, it’s because you weren’t adapting fast enough. This will come with experience, and no matter how good you are, there are people that you’re not gonna figure out in one game. What the fact of the matter is is that, again, it comes back to you.

All that said, you being here, you asking these questions and not taking the advice and shoving it back in our faces shows that you’re willing to work at getting better, which is awesome, and very respectable. Kudos and pats on the back. But a slight mentality shift into a 100% “if I am not the winner, then I made mistakes” viewpoint is useful because it will make you work harder. That’s how all top players think. Listen to Juicebox in those podcasts talk about the depth of his knowledge with all characters in the game: that’s not because he’s challenging himself to memorize all the stuff in SF4, it’s because he fucking hates losing and when he loses he goes into training and looks up frame data and move properties and figures out why he lost, commits it to memory, figures out how to beat it, and doesn’t lose to the same thing again. Listen to how hard he trains after he gets 3rd place or whatever in a tournament, because if he had played better, not if he hadn’t gotten randomed out but if he had played better, that could’ve been a 1st place. Right now it’s more basics that you need to work on, but the concept is the same.

You’ll go far with lots of work, so good luck :smiley:

Edit: Also, sorry I don’t know more about Honda, I’ll let the experts do the talking as far as he goes.


#15

Semi-ironically if you KNOW what this ‘good player’ is gonna do, he’s probably not very good o_O.

But yeah, this illustrates what I’m getting at kinda well. I switched from Rufus to Cammy in SSF4. Guess what, turns out I didn’t know how to DP on reaction. So my AA game was null, people were jumping in me left and right and making me guess. Basically amounts to a huge gap in my gameplan that someone can take advantage of, fairly easily at that. So yeah, had to relearn that bit. Just learn more aspects, learn more situations, as you delve into the game deeper you’ll one day see why these DP mashers have no chance to beat you.


#16

lost invincibility I think but it can still trade or beat moves if done w/ right timing.


#17

Going a bit off-topic here, but as a new player, this is some good stuff. Thanks.


#18

alright thanks everyone, i’ll start practicing today :slight_smile: