So I reneged on my previous post in this thread: What’s next for SF and decidedly to post up a new thread regarding OMFG FANTASY SF SHIT. I know I’ll be the biggest hypocrite ever for this, but trust me, this isn’t a wonderful piece, that usually falls into Bullshit Character Roster Fantasy Fun Time.
Instead this is more of an exploration of what are you willing to go and how far are you willing to go in order to see a more serious attempt at a 3D SF. Not to say that SFEX wasn’t a serious venture, in fact it has been the most profitable (if not at least biggest selling) product of other fighters that Capcom has released.
So to repost my post.
What can SF do in 3D?
What I want to explore with the idea of 3D isn’t so much what kinda graphics we can put into the damned thing. SNK had KOF:MI, SF had SFEX and Capcom Fighting All Stars got fucked hard as a potentially good SF 3d game, well not so much a GOOD one but a 3D one in general.
The EX series basically lacked the 3D movement of most 3D fighters (or I am wrong on this and EX people will crucify me for that mistake). But instead of taking the EX formula, how can we imagine to make a SF:3D game using the examples of other 3D fighters?
What items I would like to see discussed:
The fighting game engine: This would be the most pre-dominant topic of discussion. Which would basically include:
What do you want from other 3D fighters implemented into a 3D SF.
What gameplay elements would you like to have kept from previous SF games or put into a 3D game? (I.E. Parrying, super Jump, dash, etc.), what new conventions would you want?
What range of movement would you want from a SF3D game, using other 3D fighters as an example?
One thing that was brought up in the last bout of discussion, is that defined SF, and apparently being influenced by S.Kill’s article was the fireball. That essentially when True 3D movement is going to be added, sidesteps would negate the uses of the fireball: the defining feature (according to S.Kill) that seperates 2D games from 3D games.
I feel perhaps a way to adjust this is to use the fireballs as more of extensions of attacks/bodies of the characters rather than have them as projectiles, much like how Astoroth, Ivy and Kilik have their long distance weopons. Also using a 2D example much like KOF 98 Andy Bogard, and Ryo where their fireballs have been toned down to be more like energy blasts.
Sure 3D isn’t an avenue most of us would like to have since we are so attatched to 2D, but this is more of an exploration of what do you want if the choice came down to never seeing a Capcom fighter again, and choosing a 3D Street Fighter.
Would 3d movement really negate the usefulness of fireballs any more than parrying does already in 3s? If you think about it, parrying is actually pretty similar to sidestepping, except you have to predict whether your opponent will attack low or high to parry, and sidestepping the first move of a combo avoids all hits, unlike parrying.
side steps should be alot like rolls, except not invincible.
They should definatnly have some recovery time aswell as at least some start up and kind of add a new dimension to attacks like in my next example:
There can also be attacks that hit wide (example, someone does a wide horizontal chop) , that might hit someone in the beginninng portion of side stepping.
Emphasizing side step or any one thing is a bad idea and side stepping should definantly not be the end all be all of the game but in order to make a game 3d maybe you should consider this:
Attacking from different angles and defending from different angles, in real fighting a person fights with a particular style and usually their hand positioning and leg positioning are in a stance that provides mobility and dictates how fast they can defend from a attack to a certain part of the body, so maybe they could take a significant ammount more guard damage (yea a guard bar for specific parts of the body each with their own individual guard bars that decreases alpha 3 style (get shorter and shorter with each guard break EDIT: and that they also take slightly/siginficantly more damage if hit)
I also think platforms might be a good idea, for example , the old cliche “Sword fight up the stair way” might be pretty interesting to see how it plays out in a game and maybe the stage should have a effect on the game play (but not really drastic like smash brothers or the newer mortal kombats.)
Still overall, a 3d streetfigther isn’t that great of a idea 3d offers nothing that great that justifies it being ported over 2d except that it’s cheaper to make, a streetfighter with doa graphics is a decent idea though.
I’ll just say this, sf was never great for it’s “Realistic fighting” it was great for it’s strategy and unless you can take that to the next level (while keeping the most you can from the old intact) it isn’t even worth trying to implement 3d bullcrap.
edit: about parts of the body having guard bars i’d say mainly the legs and arms and maybe one other partj ust for diversity, some characters might defend better at a certain angle (straight forward, the left side or right side) and some may attack certain parts of the body better.
It would add a new dimension to the fighting and especially if you work on a certain part of the body and it gets weaker and weaker (although there should be some kind of balance to this since you don’t want it to revolve too much around htis)
i’d also say that say a certain character’s fighting style is weak in the leg area, and the opponent speicalizes in attacking the legs so you could see how counter characters work out. I’m still undecided if a character should have a shorter guard bar depending on their style’s weakness i’m pretty sure they should just take more guard damage.
However in a step further than this, give everyone geese like counters (except maybe not 0 start up) and have real whiffs much like geese’s counter whiff animation in cvs2, that way they can try to predict that if you are going to hit them in the leg they can try to counter you. However if you guess wrong and they hit you in the face while you are doing the counter or if they do nothing and you whiff you eat a combo,
the reason for this is because say sagat is weak on the left side of his legs because of his stance (not going by logic) and vega works the legs best of course he’s always going to try to hit you in the legs and then he will have a very very good match up agaisnt sagat automatically reguardless of how good the player is however give sagat a counter that can be for the arms, for the legs and let’s say a high counter (face… i don’t know) now vega has to watch out cuz he can’t attack sagat’s legs blindly every time he side steps him to the left because sagat might counter him cuz he knows that he’s weak in the legs so it sets up a mind game, where you try to bait a counter, or hit him in a place other than his legs, throw him or if you think he thinks you wont’ attack him in the legs, just hit him in the legs)
a more diverse dimension to this is if you wait for the person to counter so you can punish the whiff of the counter (it’s a big whiff as i said like cvs2 geese’s whiff for a counter) and then they attack them knowing you expect them counter and then you lose the intiative and now eat a block string cuz you were baiting out the counter, the mind games are endless.
You can make Fireballs work pretty nice in a 3D environment.
Make fierce fireball VERY fast
and jab fireballs slow but quite large so that they’re hard to sidestep.
Then fireballs will still be useful in a true 3d engine.
You are correct – the EX series is basically a 2d fighter with 3d graphics; the fighting engine had nothing 3d about it.
What I don’t want is a simple SFEX with freedom of movement. What I would want, is something that resembles Tekken or VF.
I don’t want to see Ryu drop into a crouching stance then bust out 8 short kicks, or do a crouching FP into a DP. It would look really ugly in 3d. In the DP example, what it would look like is Ryu crouching, hitting his opponent with and upper cut with his left hand, stop midwau, retract his left hand back and then crouch again, then jump into a DP. A 3d SF would have to have a combo system that isn’t based on cancelling or linking random moves into other moves. It would have to flow.
A throw system and tech similar to Tekken games would also be nice, but not as complicated with regards to multi holds or throws, and a more extensive counter system. While I love Gief, his ability to vacuum suck should be gone. All of the 3d games I’ve seen snuff all throw attempts should the attacker be hit by anything. This isn’t the case. Also, all games, once you’ve been sucked in a hold (and not tech), offers only a chance at escape. Heck, if you’re in a bear hug you should be able to beat his head off. If Sakura managed to get a choke hold on Gief he should be able to reach behind him and pick her by the scruff of her neck, or simply crash himself on the floor and crush the person behind him. Or even reverse the hold.
Implement some ability to make hitstun more complicated and realistic. Blanka or Honda hurling their mass into a character should be stopped by, well, anything. I mean, even a DP should be bowled over even a little bit. And Gief hurling his fist at someone should be snuffed by hitting the front pixel of said fist.
Parrying is a must, as is dashing. Rolling? Maybe, but at least not in the way rolling is currently implemented. Quick get ups like 3s (but not some of the more inane get ups in Tekken). Super jumps? Depends on how “real” the game should get, but I’d rather not have it. No goddamn tagging.
While most people hate the idea of an realistic environment (walls and such as Tekken 4’s), I find it a nice touch… as opposed to having a square ring that you can fall from, or an infinite floor, or exploding floors. SF, after all, is STREET fighter, something which Tekken 4 has captured extremely well.
On the fireball thing… here’s one approach. Make the fireball travel instantaneously. Yes, you’ll see Ryu charge up and if you’re near enough you can hit him out of it, but when he releases the fireball it would pretty hard to avoid unless you’re a good distance away.
you can pretty much tech roll any time you want (it’s not really hard to do) but there should be a risk and reward for that, cuz it’s really stupid and gay to remove wake up games 90% of the time which is exactly what tech rolls without risk do.
In fact if you ask me, quick get ups are a bad idea all together and should probably cost meter (energy) to do.
even if they do cost meter they should still have a vulnerability period,
why mindless remove up to 2 great aspects of the game (wake up and possibly otgs/pursuit attacks)
what you want in a game is depht not shitty (and brainless) system mechanics that take away from the game and everyone can master and do with 10 minutes of practice.
Not the parry system of 3s, but something more like the low parry system (or Jin’s retarded parry) of Tekken. Basically, a defense that isn’t “block that attack like a wall and take it like a man.” A 3d system should have a way of redirecting a straight attack to the side.
each character gets 1 super a round- that’s it. Super does not require meter- but you only get one. Each character would have 2-4 supers, they would not be particularly damaging, perhaps damage would be same as level 1 supers, but would be very flashy.
super cancelling would remain an option, but at a severe damage reduction.
Meter would be built up like SF, but only useable for:
EXs- EX moves would be immune to damage scaling.
Reverals- see below.
Dashes- Being able to circumvent the ground game should cost a bit of meter.
I would be trying to bring an old school vibe to the game with this. Most damage would be caused by normals and throws, not combos. I would put in KOF2k3 style damage scaling on specials and supers (but not EXs)
EXs would be similar to 3S in execution.
Reversals. The replacement for the parry system.
LP+LK does a low reversal on moves that hit low (have to block low)
MP+MK does a mid reveral- moves that hit mid (moves that can be blocked either way)
HP+HK does a high reversal-moves that hit high (have to high block)
reversals would take advantage of 3D by adding in animation. Reversal attempts would look a lot, and act a lot, like VF reversals. They would be universal, with different effects based on character, and attack reversed. They would be punishable.
Reverals would not work on supers, projectiles, or EXs. Reversals cannot be done in the air.
Command normals and overheads would play a greater role in the ground game, and as such, charge movers would likely have to be a thing of the past. The Roster would be a mix of 1/3 old chars, 1/3 newer chars, and 1/3 brand new, probably total of 25 chars total.
End Boss would be Akuma.
The Old chars
Ryu, Dhalsim, Sakura, Chun-Li, Cammy, Rose, Ken, Mika, Karin
The Newer chars
Q, Alex, Oro, Urien, Makoto, Ibuki, Yun, Yang
The New Chars
A UFC-style fighter
A Disciple of Psycho Power
A Korean fighter
A Ninja of some sort
A Military Dude
Sagat’s Daughter out to challenge Ryu
A Capoeira fighter
I know, that’s way too many female chars, especially on the old school, but I picked who I picked for varieties sake.
As for the actual 3D aspect- I wouldn’t put much of it into gameplay, except maybe walls at edge of arena to represent the corner. I’d keep the gameplay as old-school as possible.
Parry available, but you can’t always parry-> counter attack, because it actually has some recovery time. As someone pointed out, I figure parry and sidestep do functionlly the same sort of thing, but sidestep looks better, I guess…
Guard meter, so you’re forced to have to parry if you defend too much.
Keep jumps good. I don’t know how the camera would handle this, though…I want something slightly cooler-looking than the normal SFEX jumps, but no 360 degree Sonic Adventure camera stuff…
If there is going to be sidestep (or maybe some characters get parry and some sidestep?), make moves track so you can’t sidestep everything, of course.
Fast. Make it fast. Like in 2D SF, you can go from standing to crouching, essentially instantly…I want that kind of quick movement in a 3D game. I want to see 3D Gen and pee myself.
Keep throws good, and keep universal overheads for some characters (some just get regular overheads, maybe). Dash-throws…maybe. But make them have shorter range, or have more startup time.
Make everyone ambidextrous and attack with whichever limb is closest to the opponent (unless otherwise designated), and keep hit-detection the same. No need for all of that stance-switching stuff…
I like the super-fast fireballs idea…or you could also just make them track (they follow you! sorta like in 2d…).
Or, you could go the opposite direction and remake SF1, but with the VF3 engine, which i always thought would be a cool idea.
Semi-tracking is possible. That is, the fireball doesn’t look like a homing missile, rather it just changes a couple of degrees or so. The old mechwarrior PC game did this. You really didn’t see the big autoshell cannons change direction unless you looked really carefully.
EX and that cancelled game has proven that this approach does not work for the general populace.
maybe projectiles should godly autotracking, but make physical attacks not have any?
that’d make projectiles sidestep punishers, but maybe put startup on the projectile so they get killed by throws and normal attacks. In that vein, make sidesteps simply move the hittable zones to the new position after sidestepping, and only recover once the actual sprites sync back up, making it feasible to get hit by an autotracking attack, but completely dodging non-autotracking attacks. There, that’s one mindgame…
I think one idea for 3D movement in a SF and retain some SF feel would be to have sidesteps restricted to the pressing of up and down and double pressing of buttons (ex. LP+LK, MP+MK, and FP+FK.)Depending on which buttons you press will determine the speed of the sidestep as well as which attacks out of the four remaining buttons can be used immediately after the movement has stopped. So after doing a fierce side step which could move slower, the character should be able to attack with either a Light or medium attack that they have resered for side step movement. The light attack should obviously be fast to compensate for the slow side movement and possibly be designed to allow for more follow attacks and the firece attack after movement should have some major start up and be damaging.
make it with all the 3S elements to it but make the character models 3D cell shaded.
player one always has left foot forward while player 2 always has right so your always either looking at the front side of the characters or the back.
side steps should be added as double tap straight up (canceling jump start up) or a double tap down (canceling crouch start up). if capcom makes every character have side steps i would hope they become as distinct as each characters forward and back dashes.
of course some moves would have homing qualities to it. like necro’s standing strong would be impossible to side step unless u side stepped the same direction it came from. this could change the game match up wise because 1st player necro standing srong would be with his left hooking from left to right while 2nd player necro is right foot forward meaning his hooks with right arm from right to left.
have the fights start off with a normal broad scope of the area and with the 2 characters spread apart normally.
for camera tracking have 2 seperate cameras following the players but take that information and slowly merge the shots into one camera angle slowly closing in on the two characters as they become closer or zooming out while they back away.