Hypothetical for SRK staff (Don't worry, I'm not going to jump you.)


#1

If I got 200 people to play Guardian Heroes seriously, AND pre-register for Evo, AND hold several tourneys with a solid turnout, all at least a month before Evo, would it get the same treatment as SSBM?

I’ve been watching the SSBM videos, I’ve studied their forum, and I will concede that at base it is, technically, a fighting game. I am not objecting to it being at (or even possibly in) our newfound Event with a side of tourneys Evo. Howsomever, it still doesn’t feel quite… right. I still have to give the Bush standby on this one: “It’s wrong. I just know it is.”

But! If this is your reasoning, that it:

A) Has a following

B) Has tourneys

C) Has complexities and combo videos similar to our own

D) Is a fighting game

Then, quid pro quo, Guardian Heroes should be the same thing, hein?

N - I will buy 50 Saturns myself, if I have to :slight_smile:


#2

I don’t know much about guardian heroes, but even if you did have a few tourneys and have 200 people playing it, that would be NOTHING compared to what smash brothers has.

(A)Smash has well over 200 good, serious, dedicated players and thousands of others who play it for fun. Its a huge crowd draw - heck, at the V games its gotten more players than SC2 in every city. Smash also is known to have a pretty big following in Japan, though I personally don’t know much about it.

(B)Smash has rediculous numbers of tourneys. While many are relatively small (around 30 entrants or so), some get quite large. To match what smash brothers will have done by the time EVO comes, you’ll need to have 5 or 6 tourneys where people come from across the nation with 500 dollars or minimum pot for the winner. Oh, and it wouldn’t hurt to match having some european and alaskan players come all the way to california to participate. Just to show what tourneys have pulled this, we’ve already had TG4, Snexus 2, TG5, Game Over, and 0-C as major tourneys. Melee-FC and TG6 (assuming smash isn’t at evo, otherwise it may be cancelled) will occur this summer and are predicted to have record-breaking attendance. Also, the smash portion of V games has been and will be memorable.

©On our DC++ hub, you can find all sorts of videos showing anything from high level matches to practice sessions to random things that can be done with a character (I dare ya to mimic kubuu’s young link under corneria trick) to instructional videos. The hub averages at least 50 people on it at any given time, with 600 GB shared… at least half of which are smash videos. Yeah, let’s see you match that one.

(D)Smash is a fighting game, its hard to argue against that… but it also has a unique style completely different from basically all other fighting games to date (aside from the first ssb64). I’ve seen plenty of debates about the merits of 2D vs. 3D games here… and Smash really almost qualifies as a third style. The fact that stages and free range of movement play such a crucial factor in the game, as well as its unique damage/kill system set it apart from the rest. While you can compare general styles of play to that of other fighting games - turtling, gimmicky, flashy or (my own personal favorite) grumpy old man - you cannot really compare any character in smash to one from another fighting game. Because of the uniqueness of the style of play, you can’t play any character in smash the same way you would play a character from SF - the spacing/damage game is just so different.

(E)Also, I would assume that another point that you’d have to prove for your game would be that its balanced. Smash has enough balance that any character from the top 3 tiers has a legitimate chance at winning a tourney (in case you’re wondering, I’m referring to marth, fox, zelda/sheik, falco, peach, captain falcon, jigglypuff, samus, ganondorf, luigi, mario, and doctor mario). Other characters have also been known to do well, especially the ice climbers. That’s a pretty good average of characters that stand a chance, and a good percentage. Assuming that a few broken stages and items are removed, smash is an extremely well balanced game. It’s held up for two and a half years and its popularity is still continuing to gorw.

I personally don’t know anything about the game Guardian Heroes. However, if you think you can really match all the pro-smash reasons to include it… then sure, it might be worth having it at Evo. Ultimately that’s not my decision, but I wouldn’t expect you to be able to do that.


#3

Impressive…although I must admit I am nostalgic for the arcade days, it’s cool (and a positive sign for the future) that a console-only fighter has been capable of generating that extensive of a community.


#4

wow I’m hellllllllllla down for gh. I have a sat and GH. hahah NIKORUUUUUU is way too top tier


#5

I think we could definitely build a tournament community for Guardian Heroes and/or Yuu Yuu Hakusho: Makyo Toitsusen. They’re both hella-solid games, and a lot deeper than cough certain other games we’ve learned to, err, accept into the fold.

N

PS: I think they’re afraid to answer because I’m crazy enough to get it done.


#6

You think you know how deep SSBM is just by watching videos and studying the forum? You have to play, and play A LOT, to realize the depth SSBM has. Videos and forums also help those who play the game more than a person who doesn’t play it.

And you probably play those other two games, but not SSBM so you aren’t in any position to compare depth…


#7

I never said I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND ALL ASPECTS OF ALL THINGS SSBM. That would just be silly, I play 3s religiously and I still wouldn’t claim complete understanding. But I can “get” it. That being said, neither of those points are relevant.

The one thing that is, though, is if another game (as with the two cases I brought up above, two games that are unquestionably in the fighting genre, unlike SSBM) shouldn’t they be treated the same way at Evo? That is the question on the table. Can SSBM guarantee 200 entrants, pre-paid? Maybe, maybe not. I’d vote not. But if somehow I were to magically produce 200 participants for a YYH/GH tourney, all fully registered, doesn’t it bear the same (or better, if it has more entrants) regard as SSBM? Thus the question. What is the criteria that must be met to be treated as an “official” Evo game? Is it entrants? Is it community? What must be done?

N

Note: Don’t be so twitchy, I didn’t say anything bad about SSBM. I’m just trying to straighten a few things out.


#8

At first I thought you were using it as an example, but guardian heroes is not tournament worthy. Characters like G.E., and sky spirits dominate that game. And even though i’ve never seen high level play, The game does not seem to be as deep as ssbm. And I’d put money on it. And is guardian heroes really a fighter? Smash and GH are along the same thin line.


#9

Well of course, they’d be banned like Akuma in ST. Just like there are particular rules that must be enforced in SSBM to ensure a fair match, certain things would be banned in GH. It’s not as far a cry as one might think.

N - Although personally, I’d almost rather play YYH.


#10

Ok fine, let’s be honest. How many videos did you watch, and which ones? Plenty of videos you can find online (especially since you said you couldn’t get on the hub for some reason) are old, and to understand what’s really going on in some of the newer ones you’d probably have to have someone explain it to you. Also, JUST going to the forums won’t help you that much. If you don’t actually PLAY the game yourself, and have NEVER gone to a major (or even any) tourney for it, you’re not exactly in any position to really judge it at all, despite “studying” the smash community.

First of all, how can you POSSIBLY say that ssbm is NOT “unquestionably in the fighting genre”?? It’s a fighting game, most fights are 1v1 or 2v2 (any serious ones are anyway). Just because it doesn’t operate in the exact same damage setup as MVC2 or VF4 doesn’t make it not a fighting game.

I can’t guaranteed anything about the number of entrants in a smash tourney. To be honest, the main reason for that is that EVO hasn’t really been mentioned on smashboards.com. IIRC, it was mentioned ONCE in the tournament forum THREE MONTHS AGO, which is incidentally how I found this site. SSBM has NOT been completely confirmed for EVO. I’d wager that 99% of the smash brothers players don’t either know of it or expect it to be there. I’m sure a decent number would play it if they had plenty of advanced knowledge about it, but the clock is ticking and most people have no idea. Just out of curiousity, if you are assuming you can get 200 people to sign up for (game x), how many of those people are already coming to EVO to play in different games? If they’re already coming for other games, it doesn’t help pay for the tournament itself. Smash, on the other hand, has the majority of its players who aren’t nearly as interested in other games there. They might sign up for them if they’re available, but they certainly wouldn’t go to EVO for them. Even on the off chance you COULD guarantee 200 people to be there to play your game, I would figure that no more than 10% of those people are coming to EVO that weren’t already on their way. Compare that to Smash Brothers… and I think that we can top 20 people who are coming for smash and not coming if its not there. If you want to “prove” the other games relative to SSBM, refer to my previous post in this topic and see if you can even halve most of those accomplishments.

I don’t know what the criteria exactly is. Community, tourneys, complexity, videos, fighting game, balance… Smash Brothers has held up in all of these categories, and very well (despite the OUTWARD appearance of simplicity, and being easy to pick up and play). If you’ve got other categories you think are important, I’ll probably be able to find examples of them in smash too.

Oh, and you may not have DIRECTLY said anything bad about SSBM, but honestly… this entire topic is basically questioning whether smash should be there and bashing it, saying “It’s wrong. I just know it is.” You’ve made many negative comments about smash, including saying that you aren’t even hiding your contempt for the game (see your topic asking for smash vids in the fighting discussion forum). You’ve argued that it has no depth, including with this little remark earlier in the topic: “a lot deeper than cough certain other games we’ve learned to, err, accept into the fold.” Just because you didn’t say something directly about smash doesn’t mean you didn’t say anything… or do you REALLY expect anyone to believe that the no-depth comment was about some OTHER game, given your track record?

I’m not sure that smash IS going to be at EVO. No one really is. But the clock is ticking. If you really want to have a decent portion of the Smash community there, it needs to be announced NOW, so people outside of cali can prepare for it. If smash is announced as the final game in the EVO lineup in mid June, you won’t have NEARLY the number of people making plans around it as if its announced in the next week or two. If there’s confirmation yea or nay, we can get some people to hype it on the smash forums and get EVO some attention there… or if not, the issue can drop.

The V games has gotten a HUGE response at SWF, because they actually went and put smash into their lineup. Smash has beat SC2 in number of entrants for every tourney they’ve had so far. The MLG, while hyped for a while, has gotten next to no response. They had plenty of people go to the MLG forums to request smash be included in the lineup of games there… enough that MLG made a separate forum for smash. But after the third time that MLG stated that there would be an “exhibition” smash event at a tourney, then cancelled it because not enough people were coming (never mind that they didn’t bother to inform the smash community of the planned exhibition until about a week before the tourney was going to occur) most people have just decided to ignore everything about the MLG since nothing’s actually happening. EVO could easily go either way on this issue - if hyped and confirmed early, you can get a lot of entrants. If no one says anything until the last minute about anything… expect the same response the MLG got.


#11

Smashes excessive free roaming system allows for such open movement that it tends to hide otherwise terribly unbalanced normals. Grabbing out of guard stun as well as free air pokes with l-canceling, while somewhat nullifing themselves, are still issues that would never fly in a traditional 2d. Now, smashbros because somewhat balanced simply because of the free roaming movement system, but, i think those reasons go a long way to why you might not find acceptance with this community’s gamers, and why it might not been seen as one of the “fighting genre”. Bear in mind, our view of the fighting genre is much narrower than that of “non-traditional fighting game players.”


#12

Wow. I have to say, that is far and away the most logical argument against smash brothers that I’ve ever seen. Most people go no farther than arguing that pikachu makes the game suck.

Yes, the free range of movement does help with the balance, but I don’t think that the issues you bring up are nearly as important as you imply. Jumping in with an air attack and L cancelling does not guarantee you anything, because it can easily be shielded. Sure, you get up really fast, but the opponent has many options too. If you remain in range for a follow up, the opponent can follow up on you just about as easily or escape. Between shield grabbing (which can still happen if you L cancel and stay close), jump-cancelled attacks (if you hit the jump button while shielding as anyone but yoshi, you can jump out of it. do an attack before your character leaves the ground and you’ll do that ground attacks) jumped-out aerials, rolling, dodging, and more can be done on the defensive against L cancelled attacks. Its clear that L cancelling doesn’t break the game in any respect. The closest thing to a “safe” L cancelling situation is with Fox. If he jumps in with a drill kick, L cancels and uses his reflector (shine), and wavedashes away, he’s basically immune to any punishment that the shielding person can do. However, I believe every character has at least one aerial move that can beat out or at least cancel the drill kick early, so its not unbeatable. Even if it was, Few players can consistently time all that within the fraction of a second necessary to do it correctly. Even if done perfectly, the only thing you can guarantee with it is that you weaken your opponent’s shield.

As for shield grabbing being anywhere near broken, Even with it you’re putting yourself at risk. While you can get a free shield grab off of some attacks, most times its circumstantial. The opponent could always do an L cancelled aerial, resulting in the guessing game mentioned above. They could use projectiles to weaken your shield until you’re forced to drop it or have it break which leaves you completely open (note that this RARELY happens in high level games). Several multi-hit attacks, like peach’s downsmash, are safe on shield. You could go near them and roll/wavedash/dodge to lure them into whiffing and punish. No character has 0 options against a shielding opponent - heck, if the opponent is intent on blocking whatever comes next, stand just out of his reach and he’ll HAVE to put the shield down eventually and do something else or he’ll break it himself. Part of some smash strategies revolve around doing attacks that weaken an opponent’s shield, because if you weaken it enough he won’t be able to use it for a time or it will be sure to break. As a defensive oriented player, I can tell you that I’ve been on the wrong side of that tactic enough times.

I think I’ve more than covered those two points, although I have to thank you for actually looking somewhat into smash before just writing it off. Yes, it has some quirks, but what fighting game doesn’t? While its not something “traditional 2D” could handle, its something that works precisely because of the free range of movement. There are plenty of options that can usually be used to avoid getting destroyed by jump-in L cancells. There are plenty of ways to diffuse a would-be shield grab. Is there really anything else in the game that is anywhere near broken?


#13

You’re assuming an awful lot for someone who has no bloody idea what’s going on whatsoever. Very cheeky.

I’ve watched quite a few videos, mostly ones specifically picked out by YOUR people as good examples of high level play. I made sure to watch those so they could point out things to me because I knew I wouldn’t get it all just by gaping slackjawed at your “amazing wonderment of 2d fighting”. Who says I’ve never played the game? I should think your conclusion-jumping rivals anything people knee-jerked about SSBM.

**

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE STILL BITCHING ABOUT IT. If it was unquestionable, then, well… no one would question it. The word kind of implies its own meaning, hein?

**

Of course you don’t. No one does, except the SRK staff. Thus the question. Really, you SSBMers are getting absurdly touchy over a lot of nonsense. All I asked was “If I could get another game that appears to meet or exceed the same criteria established for SSBM to be at Evo, doesn’t it deserve the same treatment?” Where is the harm in that? If you don’t know, and I don’t know, isn’t it better to find out? Calm down.

Honestly my ass. You’re lumping every arguement against Smash into my one little paragraph, and to be honest it pisses me off. There are fifty thousand other people on SRK that have a problem with SSBM being anywhere near Evo, but you air your grievances against ME, who’s been relatively accepting, given the circumstances. It DOES feel wrong, but I publicly stated “Yes, it’s ok, SSBM can be at Evo, I’m not going to yell or anything”. When did the truth stop being the right thing to say? I’m not going to bullshit you, I’m still not completely OK with it. But I’m not demanding it be removed or threatening to stomp out puppies or anything.

You’ve been less than a month and you know all about my track record. Yet you don’t think anyone can state an opinion about Smash, even if they make a serious effort to “get” it over a period of time. In case you didn’t notice, that’s ass-backward bollocks.

N - cough Don’t have a coronary, I was talking about Tekken 4. That game is a hot load of garbage.


#14

Ok, on the first point. I suppose you’re right. Just because I registered recently means that I have no clue what’s going on. Silly me. I have no way of knowing what videos you watched (for all I know someone pointed you to AOB’s site and you watched 2 year old snexus 1 videos…) but it hardly matters. Do you play the game? Have you played it competitively? Have you gone to any decent tournaments for it? I strongly doubt that, but if its the case please explain which tourney you’ve gone to. I could BS about Street Fighter 2 just like you do for smash - I played it, I’ve seen videos for it, I’ve read your forums. That doesn’t mean jack, and neither does what you’ve done about smash. If I’m assuming something that is wrong, then why don’t you explain where my assumption is incorrect.

If smash isn’t “unquestionably in the fighting genre” because some people who have no idea what they’re talking about say it isn’t… I’ve got a simple solution. I declare that Guardian Heroes is not a fighting game. There, its not undisputed anymore either. Heck, I can make it even better! I declare YYH not a fighting game, and I even declare that Street Fighter 2 isn’t a fighting game. I can go on all day, but I think you can see the point. By your definition, NO game is unquestionably a fighting game.

Its kinda a moot point if you can do everything that SSBM has, because there’s no way that within a year’s time you can. Get thousands of people to play the game. Have large tourneys hosted all over the US. Get an online video setup where at any given time 300 GB of videos for (insert game here) are shared. Show that half, or barring that 12, characters are viable and have a chance to win a tourney. Given that you mentioned banning characters for being too good I think you’ve already failed on that last point. Akuma is banned from SF2 because its been proven that he completely and totally breaks the game with his air fireball. In no other real competitive game to date has any character been banned for being too good.

Why does it piss you off that I’m lumping every argument against smash into one paragraph? Because I’m showing how insignificant and petty they really are? Its funny that there are 50 thousand people on SRK that have a problem with smash brothers, given that there are barely half that many members of the forums. Even funnier that I’ve seen a total of 4 people who have been vocally against the inclusion of smash brothers - you, Apoc, loborine, and hanz0. If you’ve been “relatively accepting” then the rest of the community is welcoming smash with open arms comparatively by not saying a word.

I have nothing wrong with people having an opinion. What I have a problem with is people loudly stating their opinions without any reasoning to back them up, and falling on saying that it’s their “opinion” when called on bullshit. If you aren’t educated about it and can’t form a coherent argument then your opinion means precisely dick. GameFAQs morons who say “insert fighting game here is balanced! Tiers don’t exist” claim it as their opinions too - that doesn’t make it any less wrong.

I’ve looked up most of the topics that have pertained to SSBM on SRK for the past few months, and from what I saw you had only negative things to say about the game. You said them loud and often. So sorry if saying that you have a track record of being against smash is wrong… :rolleyes:

How about you not comment on how long I’ve been here, given that it has no relevance whatsoever to the argument at hand. You say you won’t yell about it but are clearly outwardly against having smash at evo. Can you give a real reason for this, aside from you believing that it doesn’t feel right and that it’s your opinion? Plenty of reasons have been given for the inclusion of smash. Its quite obvious that you will not be able to match them with guardian heroes or whatnot within a year, let alone before EVO. So stop pretending that this topic isn’t about smash brothers and give reasoning against smash instead of beating around the bush with references to another game as indirect insults.


#15

Forgive my typing, but Macs are “teh sux0r”.

Now, there, then, yet, I addressed your lack of tenure here at SRK simply because you are of course unfamiliar with my particular brand of mayhem. You take obvious and reflexive offense at pretty much anything I say that has to do with SSBM, simply because I already said “I’m not really a fan”. I’m not going to hide it, I really don’t think it has a place at the B/Evo that we all essentially grew up on. That’s the crux of the matter right there, Tradition versus “Evolution”. Some of us are visibly unhappy, and SSBM is a convenient whipping boy for the whole new bent of the tourney. When I’m harping, it’s not because SSBM isn’t a good game, or even out of disrespect to your community. It’s against the decision making body that has reared up and apparently decided that Homogenization is Key and Serious SF is no longer the focal point. If I was yelling, it would be a lot worse than this. This is me being reasonable. You should’ve seen the things we did to get 3s into Apex. Again, you weren’t here, you’ve nothing to compare to.

Regardless of what you may want to blind yourself to, there are people who can and will argue that SSBM is NOT a fighting game. Don’t front like there aren’t. SF is obviously a fighting game, in fact it is THE fighting game. Tekken, VF, the Versus series, they all follow suit. Even YYH or GH, they still have the same basic traits that the general populace would point to and say “Game. Fighting. Ugg-ugg. Is good”.

And, finally, we come to the meat of the matter. IS it impossible for me to come up with all of these things mentioned above? Can even SSBM guarantee PRE-paid registration for 200 competitors? I’m not saying I definitely could or could not, but it does bear asking. If it’s so impossible, then where’s the harm in one of the illustrious gentlemen in charge of Evo giving me the nod, mm? If the four criteria I established at the beginning of the thread are what is required, AND the money is already in the bank (so to speak), I don’t see what the problem could be. GH is at least as much a fighting game as SSBM, ne? There may or may not be combo videos and tourney matches floating around. Just because you don’t know about them doesn’t mean they don’t exist, I’d venture to say the vast majority of SRK folk had no idea about Smashboards previous to all this hooplah.

So. Here we sit, waiting. If it’s truly impossible, there should be no problem with letting me go on to waste my time trying to scrounge up an imaginary GH army. Instead, we get silence. Because there’s still the outside chance that it damn well COULD happen.

N - PS: Isn’t there literally about 3 full pages (double spaced of course) of things people aren’t allowed to do in SSBM tourneys? Seriously. Items, stages, Wall-bombing (Hey, let’s not let Storm run away, because it’s completely unfair to the other players).


#16

**

Since when does buying some saturns and getting some signups for ONE tourney equal the following and support the evo tournament games have recieved? If you NEED evo to get you excited about your game, then it definately shouldn’t be there (a concept i don’t think anyone gets). If these 200 people have been playing on these 50 saturns 18 months before evo, i could see your point.


#17

Who says they haven’t been playing before I announced their arrival? Even so, I should think that bit neither here nor there. Using Alpha 3 as the convenient example, isn’t attendance the bit that is always used against its inclusion? Outside of that, I specifically stated that I would hold a few medium-scale tourneys at least a month beforehand to verify it’s legitimacy.

It’s extra money for Evo in a legitimate fighting game. Where’s the problem, and why shouldn’t we get equal billing?

N - Guardian Heroes Imperial Army… and whatnot


#18

It takes more than just an announcement and a suggestion to get a game into EVO. The Smash community has been building up for about 2 and a half years now. 3S built up it’s community after Evo 2K2, it took some time to do, of course.

Just stating that Guardian Heroes is a fighting game and that people will play it isn’t enough. Personally, I love that game but I don’t see it as tournament worthy, but I’ll get to that in a second. It’s not a simple matter of more games = more money. If that were the case you’d probably see nearly every fighter ever at the tournament. Heck, why not include puzzle fighter and DDR while you’re at it?

You’re more than welcome, I think, to bring all your Saturns and run your own tourney in the side room.

Which brings me to the game itself. How do you run a GH tournament? What level are the characters at? Can you put your stats on manually? Is there a time limit? If no, isn’t it possible to just stall forever by running away? Which characters are legal?

Also, personally, I wouldn’t classify GH as a fighting game similar to SF. I’d put it more within the side-scrolling fighting games such as Final Fight and Alien vs. Predator. I guess it’s kind of a fusion of both, though.

Oh yes, and don’t refer to the arguments of one person as “you SSBMers”, as in “You SSBMers get all touchy when…”

I also feel that Naruto would be a better choice to add than YYH.


#19

A few tournies one month before… lololololol… Are you going to really compare, or do you like wasting everyone’s time?


#20

Well, the issue at hand comes from the high priority of the jumping attacks, im thinking marth here for a moment, combined with the less that great ground normals, AND the low jump, allow a player with proper spacing, to abuse the priority of those air normals, while because they land with little to no recovery, they are basically safe (because as you stated, at the right distances, the opponent can’t grab the opponent). Then, its back to what, another low jump? If the opponent starts getting sassy, you have the jumping air dodge. Now, with a weakened sheild, the opponent is going to have to worry about guarding his feet, and god, one grab from marth is a high damaging rethrow combo, IIRC. Its the lack of options vs these super priority air normals that really keep me away from playing it (i played it for a while, before GGXX). Also, if you want to get technical, Smash brothers IS far enough away from every other type of fighting game that it could be banned. The options it grants, its defense system, its killing system, random items, the extensive levels, the cast, all of these seperate it enough that on these merits it would be very bannable from tournaments. Frame data in traditional fighting games allows one to create a flow, that, using positive and negative advantages, allows one to continue his pressure, the essence of the mindgame not being the direct rewards, but rather the probabilty of landing the hit in the future do to the, as some so eloquently put it, “momentum”. This aspect, whether some notice it or not, is crucial to almost all fighting games, and, because of the ability to completely negate block stun, is mostly void from smash. But, despite all this, i would and did vote for smash brothers, since i think its style of play would be a welcomed addition to evo’s banner, and i think its depth is on par with many of the fighters being played today.