Destin, makes very valid assertions about SSBM… The game engine is very diferent from the standards set by the 2D and 3D communities. The game is different enough that if there are good grounds to keep it away from a tournament like EVO.
However, the game requires a great deal of skill and has so much depth that it is stupid to categorize it as a “button-mashing-party game”.
While the engine is very different from traditional fighters, it does share a good amount of elements from other fighting games
For example (using the games I know best as reference):
Low Jump (CvS2)
Triangle jump (MvC2)
Wave Dashing (MvC2)
Directional Influence (SC2)
Now a few of them things that make SSBM its own gender include:
Air attacks priority.
The game is definetly tournament worthy, and it would fit in the EVO scene once you the high level game.
about GH: I never heard about this game before, absolutely no reference about it. The tournament scene for this game, the mechanics and the game itself is a complete puzzle for me. Under these circumstances I would never approve a game under a tournament that I’m organizing. So if I were to organize EVO I would not be able support this game regardless of it having a good following.
Funny that you mention marth, since he’s basically the only one who can do that sort of thing (heck, its what makes him a top tier player)… but even that’s not unbeatable. Ken, who is basically undisputed as the best player in the country (although some EC people still say azen despite azen losing two straight best 4 out of 7 sets in a row at the EC tournament “Game Over” finals) is a Marth player. If you watch the ken vs azen and ken vs. isai fights (you can easily find them on the smash brothers DC++ hub - address is 126.96.36.199:1090 ) where one of them plays as marth, you can see plenty of examples of high level players using different characters to overcome marth’s advantages (I believe marth still wins most of those fights, but its kinda to be expected with it being the best player in the nation and whatnot). If you want some other examples, check the vidjo vs. eduardo (which many consider one of the biggest upsets in a long time) from the FOB 2 tournament that occurred a few weeks ago. Basically, you have to make them whiff the attack and find a way in to start hitting them - by no means easy, but it clearly can be done. Also, shielding isn’t the only way to deal with that - you could easily roll away and back off, dodge, wavedash away… its what gives marth his solid place among the top 3 characters, but its by no means unbeatable.
As for marth’s throws, its really dependant on the circumstances. on levels with platforms, the opponent can just DI toward the platform and be sure that he won’t be able to chain once they hit it. They can also DI different ways to mess up his grab or whatnot. the rethrow only works on a few characters anyway (sheik is the one who can really do chain throws well).
Also, what is far enough away about smash brothers that’s worth getting banned? Its damage system and kill/death system is different, but what’s so wrong about that? I mean really, is a life bar and having combos that work perfectly the exact same way every time so standard that its become a necessity in fighting games? Smash brothers had directional influence before SC2 even came out… so its not like games aren’t borrowing anything from smash brothers anyway.
Evo is meant to be the ultimate fighting game tournament. Ignoring one of the biggest games with a huge fanbase because the game has a few fundamental differences in the damage and kill system from the other fighting games denies the entire purpose of being the ultimate fighting championship.
Now to address thongboy’s post.
I kinda want to argue against you when you say crap about my favorite game, yes. Call it reflexive or whatnot, but I’ve seen 4 people who seem to have been loudly complaining about smash, and you’re one of them. If that’s how you argue about everything, there’s nothing wrong with that, but I’m gonna be against it when you make arguments against smash.
about the “not a fighting game” argument. Just because some people who have no idea what they’re talking about say smash isn’t a fighting game (I’ve asked people to give their definition of a fighting game in several topics. I’ve gotten no response), doesn’t mean their opinions mean jack if they can’t explain it. Like I said, I could be a complete and total moron and declare any game in the world not a fighting game, but it would be meaningless. Same goes for the people who declare smash not a fighter and have no reasoning behind it.
The 200 competitors thing isn’t what I was talking about. You said you’d match everything smash has in the 4 categories (videos and tournaments included). There’s no way you could possibly even have 1/2 what smash has done for that in the two months left before evo - you’d have to have at least 5 tournaments per day, and somehow get 200GB of guardian heroes footage and whatnot up online on DC++. Its just not feasable. As for smash, the number of competitors will likely be high anyway, but given that it was JUST ANNOUNCED as a POSSIBILITY on smashboards its kinda hard to get anything near an exact figure.
Even if you could get the “GH army” or whatnot, how many of them would come to EVO who weren’t already going for other games? It hardly matters toward the tourney’s total funding if you get 200 people pre-registered for guardian heroes if 180 of them were already coming for other games. Smash has more than its fair share of people who would definitely consider coming if smash was there, and might even join some other tourneys while they were there, but sure wouldn’t come without smash. Or maybe you could do what some people told the smash community to do - have people come from across the nation and pay the 20 dollars entry fee and then play in some minor stupid little tourney in the non-tournament room.
As for the “not allowed in SSBM tourneys” thing its actually pretty straightforward. Would you like a simple list and their explanations?
banned stages - hyrule temple, yoshi island 64, termina great bay, fourside, and brinstar depths. Temple and Termina are banned because some characters can play an infinite runaway game against slower characters due to the loop shaped level. Y64 is banned for being broken with the clouds, as jumping laser spammers could get free damage while easily forcing a doule suicide for certain characters if they follow. Fourside is banned for problems with the peach bomber infinite (which may or may not be dealt with separately) and brinstar depths has fall-through points that aren’t really understood in their entirety. However, some tournaments have their own stage selection rules separately.
items - the biggest argument in smash has been about the inclusion of items, but most people have decided to remove them. End issue.
unstoppable stalling - tricks that can stall a match indefinitely while leaving the victim unable to do anything without killing themselves are banned. This includes the ice clibers freeze glitch, the luigi ladder in team games, and the peach bomber stall. The bomber stall is a new thing that was discovered recently, so no one’s sure exactly what to do about it yet. If you want to know why this is an issue… suppose storm could climb up the wall of the stage higher than any other character could attack, and stay there as long as she wanted, basically giving her a free win if she just stayed out of range with a lead and drained the timer. You ban a whole lot of glitches in MvC2 as it is, I think that sort of thing would be removed as well. The only problem with flat out banning the bomber is that its a legitimate recovery tool in many circumstances. Note that this as a problematic tactic has yet to come up in a tournament match.’
Yes, there are a few rules that would need to be ironed out, but again, its nothing worse than what’s done in other toureys for games that are already in the evo lineup.
a) General match rules: timers(on or off), 2x or 1x elimination, 2/3 or whatever.
b) Item rules: Either restricted or Removed
c) Banned Stage: a few well known stages are removed.
d) Glitches: MvC2 style glitches are not allowed.
That doesn’t sound clear, it sounds undecided. Anyway they’ll figure out something. Theres not much purpose left in this thread anyway. Just someone trying to start a SSBM argument, the original idea is silly, he was just hoping someone would read it and start arguing about SSBM instead of pointing out the flaws in his proposal.