you should mention that your matchup chart is probably biased and not based off the highest level play, but off of your play
It’s not based off of my play but what tools the characters have and what I see from top level play (with the exception of Sorashido’s play, because I think he’s just above his opponents, which is why he wins so much over his bad matchups).
You said yourself that Shadow Labrys’s dp is really good and is a factor when it comes to evening out some of her matchups but you never took into account that in the highest level of play, people just react to her dp with their own dp, despite me only playing like one person that was able to reliably do that on reaction. If anything, your matchups weren’t taking into account the highest level of play.
you know, another factor in why her matchups aren’t that strong is that unlike other characters, she can’t roll out of whiffed supers because they can OMC the super when it touches your persona. You’re basically forced to block cross slash and bufudynes unless they don’t have the meter to OMC.
well, my description of matchups are based against playing the best players in the world…
So what are your SLab matchups, because I’m curious to hear how she doesn’t have a lopsidedly hard time against Yu, Mitsuru or Yosuke. What can she do against the things I mentioned she has trouble with against them?
mitsuru is probably even. yosuke is disadvantage but it’s not even close to 7-3, narukami is about that bad. kanji is in slab’s favor
maybe if you played more than one person you could get a deeper understanding of the character?
id also like to add that hitstop plays a big part in whether you can react to slab b+d and counter with your own. vs labrys, i can always get my b+d to come out no matter what move i use, but against slab that’s not the case
Well I explained Kanji. She dominates the matchup, but even the slightest slip-up and he can turn everything around. She also has to work incredibly hard in the match. The matchup would be in SLab’s favor if everyone played 100% perfect, but the likeliness of error should always be factored in, somewhat.
Explain how Mitsuru is even…it just totally goes against my points listed in the chart.
I didn’t say I played only one person, I said I’ve played like one person that can reliably react to my r-action with their r-action. But in high level play, I’ve seen so many people do it (and on a consistent basis) that her r-action is almost a non-factor.
That’s you, but in the matches I see, players are consistently doing R-action against hers. Yes, there is a lot of hitstop happening but they can do it. I’m sure Mitsuru 2AA or 5AA is enough.
For instance, this video:
At 1:17:54 and 1:22:47 and 1:20:30(against Chie but still). It’s effortless for these kinds of players.
actually, because mitsuru 5a and 2a have practically 0 hitstop, it’s pretty much impossible to react. for a character like chie, yu or yosuke, who have a ton of hitstop (or in chie’s case, has a great gatling like 5a > 2a > 5a), it’s very, very easy to do
a lot of characters “dominate” kanji, but then can mess up and lose - that one slip up doesnt negate the character doesnt dominate every other part of the matchup
slab can get knockdown off pretty much anything into setplay, mitsuru doesn’t have that - you need to get a specific hitconfirm to get into mitsuru’s mixup game. mitsuru random confirm damage (standing autocombo or AAA > 5 or 6B > 5C > a droit) doesnt top 2k without meter, air confirm (jAC > dj jC or B+D) doesn’t get above 1400, and situation resets to neutral
on top of that, slab hitconfirm into setplay dmg peaks at around 2.5k - although that is definitely lower than mitsuru dmg off specific hits (2b anti air, B or sweep fatal, 5A or 2A ch, etc), it is more than the hitconfirms she’ll get most often
mitsuru is good at breaking the persona but not at breaking the persona + covering herself, if someone uses A droit a bunch or 5D, slab can get in with jB > confirm with w/e > setplay
also, like i said before, mitsuru has little to no hitstop on her A attacks, making it extremely hard to punish B+D on reaction - of course, there are ways around it, but it shouldnt be a surprise that A is the foundation for mitsuru’s pressure
however, mitsuru has amazing things going for her - primarily she has multiple ways to beat cmd grab, which discourages it, she can get out of some pressure that other characters can’t with ib 5a or setsuna, B+D hitting behind is awesome, and getting a good hitconfirm likely means one more hit > death. in awakening, sweep > omb > mahabufudyne is probably game unless slab has been running train the whole round
what the match ends up turning into at high level is a tense mid range game, because a poor approach by slab leads into huge damage > potential setplay > death, but a whiffed move or playing too passive can lead into mitsuru getting knocked down > setplay > death. slab wont (or at least) shouldnt burst until awakening because titanomachia is great for comebacks and mitsuru is not that good at baiting bursts without a hard bait (which isnt worth it for the most part, imo)
You seem to be right about Mitsuru’s hitstop, I just tested it out. I just assumed all normals of the same strength have the same hitstop for all characters.
That said, I still don’t see how it’s even from your description. There isn’t much “setplay” going on when Mitsuru’s r-action greatly limits the kind of mixups SLab can use. In almost every case, air blocking an r-action doesn’t even give you enough time to punish with a 5A. The roll mixups are punishable by her R-action and are reactable. And as you said, command grab loops don’t work. She’s kind of stuck with forcing blockstun with early lasers to land some high/low mixups while they are blocking it.
She also has no answer for 5A. She can’t go under it (2AB doesn’t really work), and her fastest normal is like 7f startup, just not enough.
mitsuru cant hit slab crouching with tip of 5a. if you use laser/knuckle mixups more, the risk/return of mitsuru using B+D is greatly in slab’s favor, there isn’t even a point of using B+D
slab’s 5a is the same speed as mitsuru - 7f. slab can easily punish mitsuru’s b+d while she is still airborne with b+d
That’s not true…I already tested it before but I just tested it again. The only way you can airblock and punish it with 5A when Mitsuru is still airborne is if SLab is close to the ground AND is descending. All other cases, it’s too late. Also if the back of Mitsuru’s R-action is blocked in the air(because she went the wrong way), there’s absolutely no way to punish it.
i think youre misunderstanding - im saying that slab can punish mitsuru b+d while mitsuru is still airborne and in CH state
if you’re talking about mitsuru b+d vs slab setplay, like i said, risk/reward is just not worth it, dmg trade will always be in slab favor
I don’t get the logic behind the Aegis MU here. Aegis’ pressure and oki are disgusting and awesome, but SLab’s oki on Aegis is also extremely good. You can practically ignore her reversal on most of your set ups and make her life hell the same way she can to you. SLab is really good at controlling the neutral too. Aegis’ projectiles are pretty useless, and when Aegis has to go in it’s really risky with fire in the air and Lab still having options. The MU basically is SLab waiting on Aegis to try and come in, then see who gets a KD to win it.
Except the reward from Aegis is much bigger than Shadow Lab. That’s the main reason I have it in Aegis’ favor. Also 2B is a problem because if SLab blocks it, then her persona is interrupted if it’s in the middle of an attack…it’s hard to get certain persona attacks out in the neutral situation, like lasers.
Gatling guns and missiles aren’t an issue against SLab though, I agree.
I haven’t really updated the matchups section yet.
If I’m not mistaken there’s more Sorashido here. There’s also an SLab mirror match: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAt_Tpf6mM
Starts at 2:08
Yes that’s him…there’s also a few uploaded ft10 sets with him that I forgot to add:
Sorashido vs. Raltan
Sorashido vs. Gyakuten America
So Bananaken overcomes this terribly one sided matchup against LordKnight’s Mitsuru and wins UFGT.
Somewhere between the 4-5 hour mark (can’t check exact times now because my bandwith is running low). They played in winners final and grand finals.
SLab had a really great finals at UFGT. People don’t know this matchup. He was really effective in doing crossup 8C to knockdown the opponent, and people seem to eventually fall prey to his Massive Slaughter setup.
It wasn’t on stream, but he played Kurumster (Aigis) in pools, and I couldn’t believe some of the mixups he blocked. His wins were largely due to strong fundamentals.
I forgot to add these videos before…some FT10 sets between Nerina (a very good Japanese Shadow Labrys) and various players
Shikki(Yu) vs. Nerina
YMST(the best Kanji player) vs. Nerina
gomibakodarake(Yosuke) vs. Nerina
Nerina vs. Souhei(Elizabeth)
watching the YMST set is very disheartening…Nerina basically loses 10-0, even though he played the matches very well. This pretty much confirms my thoughts on why the matchup is in Kanji’s favor. Even though Nerina was able to dominate the neutral game for about 90% of the match, the other 10% that Kanji was dominating, pretty much outweighed everything Nerina had done in the round.
Alright I made some updates to various sections of the data compilation, as well as linked some additional videos. Also wanted to mention that Tomo is confirmed for Evo…now the thing is he was considered one of the best Shadow Lab players but this was a long time ago. The SLab tech has advanced so much since then and I haven’t seen any remotely recent videos of Tomo…based on his skill from previous matches, I think he wouldn’t do well today, so I’m wondering if anyone’s stumbled upon any new Tomo videos.
Edit: And to respond to Lord Knight’s post from way back about Kanji vs. SLab being in SLab’s favor. The Japanese score it 6-4 Kanji, and the YMST vs. Nerina set was a complete blowup (score-wise) despite Nerina playing very well…it’s just not in her favor, even though she dominates the neutral game. YMST also beats Sorashido, the best SLab player.
New matches with Sorashido, the best Shadow Labrys against various players including Minori and Tetsu:
Videos haven’t been uploaded yet but Bananaken wasn’t able to beat Lordknight this time at CEO 2013…I noticed there were too many r-actions attempted by Bananaken and in the long run it just didn’t benefit him. Unfortunately I think this is like the only way to really get out of Mitsuru pressure once she is able to start it on you, but the risk/reward is not in SLab’s favor.
Also I still feel LordKnight does not know the matchup, in the sense that there were many many instances where Bananaken would just go with the full attack strings that have multiple reactable gaps where Mitsuru can r-action, but Lordknight just blocked and blocked. He understands how to block the pressure but in all those situations you could be R-actioning on reaction instead. I don’t actually remember one instance where Bananaken did some string into 5B and then did not cancel 5B into something reactably punishable (like qcb+A).