I dont like new players going right into god tier teams


#1

listening to alphaism and ski is talking about what to do at the face off, and you know what, its so boring to just hear mags vs storm, sent vs storm, cable vs sent. i think new players are still learning a lot, but i would like to send a request to new players to master more than msp, mss, cccs, etc… bring some more new life to the game. i understand what is viable in tournament play for the most part, but lets not forget the joy of just playing games. dont get so caught up in, well i cant even think to beat a player like yipes unless i use these tier of characters. who cares. be the best with your respective team. i had much fun last night in the room we were playin. this dude was gettin off with amingo. he had a japanese first and last name, but i dont know if he was. just judging off his good play of lower tier characters and his name, i assumed he was japanese.

mix it up a bit. yeah, you can have cable on your team, why not, but style that shit up. work on that new shit. i dont know, im just not impressed by msp’s, mss, etc… im impressed by how people can execute so excellently but im not impressed that you can rush someone down with msp and regardless of their skill level, you can basically random them the fuck out with reset bullshit. id rather see someone doing wild shit with amingo, blackheart, spiral or something. that shits entertaining to me.

so i say, new players, i understand how you feel when your coming against people raping your team with beast characters, but dont let that discourage you, and dont just follow the leader. i think this is an excellent opportunity to bring marvel back around to something new again. after years of basically being caught in playing the same characters, maybe we can have hundreds of new players with a low/mid tier dedication, and hell, i would like to see evo even have a low/mid tier tourney too. get something new on the big screen.

i dont know, its just me. anyone feel that way? like i understand people been mastering their respective high tier teams for years now, and they want that type of comp also, but i would like to something new develop from this, and not another 200 sentinel/cable/ commando players. excuse the thread, i just felt that this is something someone starting out can see, and it may encourage them to be like, yeah, fuck that, im gonna stick with spiral/blackheart/guile or whatever.

im not saying its bad if you have cable on your team, or mags. i play cable and i enjoy it, but i mix it up too. i just dont want 5 months from now for online to just turn into top 8 at evo teams.


#2

I dont about everyone else, but I hardly play top tier teams online. But I do think it is a good thing for player to understand WHY infact these temas are top tier and for a reason, the best way to know your matchup is to play the matchup on the opposing side.

but i doubt it’ll be like that. ok maybe Im just hoping that it wont. SF4 used to be dominated with just Ryu/Kens at least it has gotten a bit more diverse.


#3

To me, it makes no difference.

A new player with a top team will lose just as badly, since seasoned players are used to fighting the top 4. At least a new player that picks a team like MSP will learn team synergy, as opposed to a new player that picks characters he thinks are cool.

There’s so much information on MvC2’s top tier cast that’s its much easier for a new player to learn these than more obscure low tier characters.


#4

Good post ^^^


#5

well yeah, but they can still learn team synergy regardless if they pick msp or not. i just dont want marvel’s release onto 360 and ps3 with online play to just develop more of what we have seen for years now, when there is an opportunity for something a bit new. yes we all know players who play low/mid tiers, and do so very well, but i think more can still be had with the game with more creativity put into play, and less tier whoring. i mean you got the japanese players coming to evo2k9 showing people shit we didnt even know about. huh, in a ten year old game there is stuff that we still go, wtf too. thats good shit, and one reason for which marvel has so much life.

outside of your normal top 8 choice characters, the game technically has a TON of room for creativity, and we know that through the combo videos and stuff over the years, but i just think it would be a chance to add a little something more, than just having another generation of tier whore players. nothing against the tier whoring, dont get my words twisted, because when money is on the line, i understand people play to win, but im just sayin. like, i would really like to see evo go a more creative route with marvel next year. i think we should come up with something to add to marvel at evo next year, because they game technically has all it needs to create some epic moments gameplay wise. i mean, i think we all enjoy the hype and seeing the graceful execution of msp’s and the like, but lets try something different for marvel a little. im not saying you shouldnt, or cant pick sentinel or cable, but with new and old players coming out the wood works to once again enjoy mvc2, i think we have potential to refresh marvel a little.

just my opinion, and i thoroughly understand the desire to play certain characters, whether it just be that you practiced them for a while now, theyre your favorites, and or you like the way they play. just want to make that clear:china:


#6

Yeah, I used to mix things up, but the single constant has always been Magneto. His speed and combo ability are unmatched, and my fun comes mainly from playing as Mag.


#7

Learning top teams is the fastest way to learn what’s actually important in the game. Then if they feel like it players can branch out into other, “lesser” teams with an actual understanding of Marvel in mind. Hazeandfire had a really good post about this in another thread here, supporting team scrub as a starter team.

New players aren’t just going to assemble incredible crap with ANY team, like Banshee said. This game’s learning curve is gross, why make it harder on green players asking them to play Jin or whatever? They can play Jin after they learn to play Cable.

For the record I’m mostly playing stupid Gief teams online, so I sort of agree with your premise, this opportunity is great to breathe life into the game for those of us that have played for nine years. But new players need all the help they can get while they’re learning.


#8

and i feel that. like i just like cable. i liked cable and iron man just off gate before my srk days, and i would through cable in not for cheese, but just cause i fuck with him. see thats straight. like i dont mind seeing mags on a team, but its like, oh you picked msp, cool shit, no salty feelings, but like, i would like to see mags mixing it up on something different, and droppin some new shit. i have already seen msp. its over a half a decade in the making. great

like right now ski just went through the basic team names and the characters for each team. like, this is msp and this is who is on it. this is santhrax, and this is who is on it and how you play them, etc… okay, cool, it is important for people to recognize the real of what they will inevitably face one day. like, this dude ski literally said im going down the list of PLAYABLE marvel teams. ha ha. i mean, i understand where he is coming from, because aint no rogue/doom/striders taking first ever in a sea of msp’s and santhrax’s, but i despise the fact that he said these are your playable teams for marvel, and basically picking anything else is you wasting your time with marvel. thats garbage for real.

not to nit pick this episode, but again, like he is talking about, “least, most orthodox team”, and bunkei guessed mst ( mag/storm/tron), and ski was actually going with storm/sentinel/cable, but then proceeded to say he wouldnt recommend any new player coming into marvel to play mst. although shout out to mixup for doing something with mst, if you comin in fresh to marvel, just play msp. like, im not feeling that at all. players should have expectations that yes, you can be god like with ken/blackheart/cable or whatever, but a good msp is most likely gonna beat you when you face up, but i dont like that many people getting into marvel are listening to this and are just gonna pick up team scrub and be just another team scrub mixed in with the others. like, where is the freshness?

i can see a possible split if new players stick with it, and there just be dedicated mid/low tier players, and your usual top tier team players.

all they will do is get comfortable with that ease of winning b.s, and they wont branch off. i feel i can almost guarantee that. like, they will get comfortable finally learning to use msp and be able to be pretty decent with that team, and theyre not gonna all of a sudden branch off into a rogue/blackheart/tron team. maybe vets in the series who have either played it, or at the very least kept up with it can, and will do that, but someone fresh green into everything will most likely pick a top team, stick with it, and never add anything else.


#9

that’s the problem. those players will have that mentality regardless. if they choose to learn about the game and get good, those players won’t be affected by playing low tier first (as they probably have)

just like you will always have the scrubs who will always use spiderman, hayato, etc. it can’t be changed imo

it takes a rarer breed to learn the essential and match ups of top tier play, and then go back using the skills they have acquired to truly play low tier well. the players that are even rarer are the ones that play(ed) in a high level environment and figured out low tier teams to compete with especially with the learning curve. most people want to be able to compete, and top tier is the way. once they have that covered, which is essential to most people imo, then they may go to low tier which is usually only useful just for fun/random side tourneys. What you want is just not going to happen (and pretty foolish/selfish too)

the best way is to have the people play the top tier and learn what they need, and there will be a few that may go back to low tier. I don’t think this can be changed


#10

And I’ve always liked Mag and Storm, even in 2000, and I’ve always liked Balrog, from CE on. So sure it’s a little annoying to me that MSP is so popular and Balrog in SF4 is so popular but what should I do, stop playing them because they’re popular? That’s like teens saying their fav band ‘sold out’ because they got successful. It’s nice to have ‘your shit’ but hundreds of thousands of people play these games and thousands of people play to win. You’re not gonna get to be a unique snowflake.

But I agree with you that it’s wrong for people to say “this is the only way to win.” When the chips are down in a big tournament, sure people are gonna go with top 4 + good assists because it’s not time to screw around. But outside of big pressure situations a huge portion of the cast is more viable than usually given credit for, I totally agree with you there. To say “don’t play stuff that isn’t MSP/thrax/etc.” is lying to new players and will only feed the myth that Marvel is about 4 characters. Agreed.

You added to this as I was quoting and made it more solid, ha ha. I was gonna say, but look at those of us who’ve been around a decade and obviously know top tier and are playing different stuff for fun. As for what new players who actually learn top will do, we don’t know. If they wanna stick around I feel like they’ll branch out just for variety. Like we’ve both said, there’s more to the game than four characters no matter what anyone says; if they’re fluke players they’ll get bored of MSP and move on back to Halo or whatever. If they stick around, I bet they learn some other stuff. If only because running over the ten million Guile players in ranked with MSP is really, really boring. Sure they’ll have a month where they figure out how to do the ROM and don’t want to do anything else, but that’s only entertaining for so long.

And anyone JUST playing to win online is missing the point of playing online to begin with. Especially since sometimes winning and losing in Marvel online is hella random.


#11

foolish how? selfish not really. you could argue its selfish for the community to say, oh you wanna play rogue/cable/war machine, thats dumb, you will lose, play one of the top 8 over played teams if your gonna play marvel, or basically take that random scrub team to casuals or random side tourney. agree?

see, i knew someone was gonna get butt hurt when someone said otherwise. its foolish why? because there is no real expectation to take evo with rogue/ken/col? yeah, true as of now, but what im saying is maybe as a community we could embrace this mid/low tier side more, and even go as far as to make it more of the norm when it comes to mvc2 tournaments. have your normal shit where anything goes, and another one with specific limitations on certain teams, and its not really a complex thing to do. hopefully even to go as far as to have evo split mvc2 like this next year.

i mean, why not? really, what solid argument besides, well, they should learn team, scrub, msp, whatever, before learning storm/rogue/tron is there, and if we split the tournies its not even an issue. mid/low tier players wont even have to deal with msp’s and santhrax’s. everyone is different, but i would argue you dont NEED to learn msp to fight msp. you just need to know what YOUR team can do in general and against top tier teams, and well, there will always be msp’s to fight. especially with online play now, and with the plethora of vids and strategies all over the net, if you wanna learn to deal with top tier teams with your mid tier team, you can. will you consistently win? no. an intermediate msp is still a pain, but thats why im suggesting more of an embracing of these lower tiers with having marvel tournies run mid/low tier tournies with set rules.

like, we can all agree that realistically msp will consistently run through some random amingo/rogue/storm team regardless of how good the player is with that lower tier team, so in the light of that, lets not put this group with that group. so if you wanna try your rogue/ken/col against the big dogs, fucking go for it. the community has been doing it, but maybe now lets give more of the cast a chance to shine, and more players a chance to compete.


#12

Low tier tourneys have happened. They’re not made official events for the same reason they don’t have an offshoot of the NBA for only players under six feet. Training wheels isn’t the real thing. Fun, yes, can win sometimes, yes, but the real thing? No.


#13

lol no one got butthurt dumbass. more like I figured YOU were gonna get butthurt haha.

it is foolish to think that this change will happen. it is selfish to assume that players that want to get really/compete (in tournaments and what not) and play a game at it’s highest level should just not learn top tier (or put it off)

what you’re saying is selfish is not, since that is how the game is. please think a little harder.

still foolish that you think you can change the majority of how competitive people want to play, or to think you can propose evo split the tourney for a 10 year old game.

MSP isn’t a much of a problem as scrub/santhrax/BH teams anyway. at least low tiers can get fight close with MSP (unless storm is smart/wants to win and just runs away). most low tiers can’t even get in on a keepaway team who doesn’t want to fight.

if you want the best chance to compete or even place in a big mvc2 tourney, you do need to know the top tiers, sorry.

I still stand by my original post of where any good low tier players will mostly come from


#14

oh no doubt. come on now. i know that. lol. well i wouldnt compare the nba to marvel. thats apples and dirt in comparison in my opinion. lol. the only reason no one wants to start making low tier tournies a norm is just the normal hard headed mentality we have in this community. we all suffer from it, but i think at this point lets do something new. like, NO, marvel is not 8 characters. WE as a community CHOSE to make the game the way it is, and just basically be like, “you play amingo/ken/tron? your a scrub and no i dont care that your good with that team and it doesnt matter anyways because you really have no place amongst the gods of marvel. if you wanna play marvel, you play one of these top teams, thats it, thats marvel.”

i mean, the tourney aspect of this argument is well, i mean, if you make low/mid tier tournies a norm, and not just marvel tournies step son, (lol) then obviously the expectation of winning with a random rogue/doom/ken team is different, and lets not take games so serious now. it aint like these tournies over the years are giving out 2 thousand dollar pots all the time to first place, and that is why marvel is the way it is now, so to actually add lower tier tournies with the standard marvel tournies is not doing anything more then helping the community. you want a marvel 3, then you need to do something to add in more of the cast to tourney play, which we all know what needs to become the norm for that to happen.

i know many would argue, we been playing it this long and havent had to do any of that, but we just got a fresh release to xbox 360 and ps3, and with sf4’s release we brought in tons of new players who are gonna pick up marvel now just because, so lets keep them around, and have fun in the process.


#15

whoa, son, watch ya mouth. i aint call you no names, so dont go gettin all sensitive and poppin off at the mouth. you got your opinion and i got mine, lets just leave it at that between us, because you gettin a bit to puffy chest right now. yeah, i said you were butthurt because you were callin me selfish, and my thoughts on this foolish. you came at me, i didnt come at you, but anyways, i just wanted to address that, and leave it at that. the thread aint got to get hostile. its a fucking game, sir. back to discussion


#16

somebody said, “Learning top teams is the fastest way to learn what’s actually important in the game.”

While this is highly true in reality… its entirely false for noobs online… and here’s why… when i get to char select screen I wait a sec to see what sort of team they will pick… if i see msp or some other god tier team coming in… im gonna pick one of my best teams… …and if its a noob picking msp… 40 seconds later they will have lost terribly and learned almost nothing except (hopefully) how to lose with dignity… …if they pick a random looking team of mix tiers then I know I’m picking a low tier squad and they will at least get to mix it up… have a real match… and learn somethings about fighting someone… …this will never happen if they pick msp (ect) everytime and it causes the other guy to play a mean ass team.

So while I agree with what a lot of you are saying… I still have to agree with others and say that learning all the characters is a good idea… several teams… not just top tier stuff… apart from that… I’m not sure someone who is new to this game is ready to just pick their team and never switch. That sounds boring and lame unless you have already explored all the options and found what you really love…

Apart from all that if people thought like that then we would have no legendary low tier players (they’d have all just played top tier from the start) and other characters like IM, Anak, Dhal (list goes on) whose potential took longer to explore… would not have been explored… in theory some of you vets are posting in here with “advice” that actually sets possible discoveries back, by telling the new comers to not look for them!!

enough said…


#17

Maybe you should try bringing new life into the game, you’re much more fitted for the job.

It seems like here on SRK we have a decent community of veterans who play low tier all day, that’s the way to go. We have the experiance and ability to shell out the low tier goodness of MVC2, not the 100,000 ken players that migrated to MVC2 from SF4. I garentuee you if you pick a random team like marrow/venom/hayato, you’ll find game winning tactics must faster than someone who still doesn’t understand why might want to super jump instead of normal jump.

And simply put, you learn how to defend against the top 4 by playing them, you understand the game so much better. I just didnt get the game until I played team scrub, and again I felt drastic improvements by learning storm. Now when I pick Morg or Juggernaut I can acctually hit Sentinal out of the sky instead of eating assist to rocket punches all day.

And personally, I think the best way to learn your low tier chars is with 1-god teams. Shit like sent drones and storm’s hail storm DHC can open up damn near any low tier character.

:rofl: well that’s cool that you pick like that but I gotta tell you most of the people I play dont. They wait for my team and go strait to Scrub. Though I perfer it that way, I don’t pick Morg because I feel like fighting someone’s half baked Cammy/jugg team, I pick her because I like taking down Sentinal before he realizes I’m a threat.


#18

is that sarcasm? lol. i didnt understand some parts of your post, but i already said its cool if you wanna play with cable, mags, storm, whatever, and well if you wanna learn team scrub first, fine, whatever. my biggest point through all my paragraphs is that i dont want to just see another generation of top 8 character players, when at this very moment we have a chance to give marvel a bit of new life. i have never said you shouldnt play any top 8 characters at all. i play them, but i mix it up too. so if i have sent, then ill have some other random shit with it, or if i have cable i might have some other random shit with him, but if you wanna tier it up, cool, i never said old players should stop doing what they been doing if they dont want to. im more speaking to new players and tourney organizers right now. adding mid/low tier tournies as the norm doesnt affect top tier character players.

the point that is being MAJORLY missed here, is that this isnt me coming into mvc2 forums with mvc2 still being only on dc with its already set players who have been doing this for years now. this is me coming into the mvc2 forums recognizing that with all the new releases this year, we have a HUGE surge of new players here now and coming, playing mvc2 on one of the two major consoles, and this is our chance to be like, this is the way its been done for years now, but lets maybe put a new twist to this shit now. i mean for real, this is only beneficial to us. if running mid/low tier tournies alongside open mvc2 tournies becomes the norm, your just gonna have more players playing, which creates more demand for the series, which makes bigger pots for marvel players, which gives a larger possibility of mvc3, which hopefully brings more sponsors and bigger ones when they see the amount of individuals showing up to these tournies.

like this isnt the ramblings of a scrub who wants to get his chance. you see the join date. i joined this site specifically for marvel back then. i know whats really good. i keep up with marvel. i fucks with it, and i aint trying to whore out the community to turn it into some commercialized melting pot, or a community who says we will dry your tears and give you a mid/low tourney because you cant compete with ken/ryu/blackheart. im just saying this is our opportunity to open up with marvel now. where as though before it was only on dc and arcade (ps2 doesnt count. lol) and now its on ps3 and xbox 360, AND ONLINE, and now we can actually make this a bit funner. winnings and everything aside. hell, we just have an opportunity to make the game funner, with more hype, new catch phrases, ha ha, and have more comp, but inevitably much more can come of this, but i dont see much more coming of it if we stick to the usual marvel format at tournies. i mean really its gonna take majors to do this too, alongside local tournies, but i think the low/mid tier goodness should be given a go.

ladies and gentlemen, i think we can agree this can only benefit us who love the vs series, and specifically love our capcom and marvel characters duking it out in the vs series. i think i might have bounced a tiny bit, but my post are pretty consistent, and its saying, new guys, marvel is not just about 8 characters, and we shouldnt be preaching that. if you want to do msp, by all means, enjoy, but fuck what everyone else says, feel free to play mags with whatever mixup you want. create your own team synergy. create something new, and tourney organizers lets maybe consider adding a new norm to the marvel scene.


#19

Not sarcasm at all. I’m paving the way on XBL for low tier, join me. But don’t expect too many productive contributions to the marvel world from the new challengers riding in on the SF4 bus


#20

lol gj assuming I was butthurt but otherwise ignoring my post jimmy, stop being a joke.

and no, madtitan, getting beat is how you learn to play and play against top tier. those people who usually pick spiderman, wolverine, etc. aren’t going to learn anyway. and if they DO learn something, it’s not really how to fight well imo

also, hazeandfire, GG that one ranked match we played. that morrigan/tron (I think doom too…ugh) is effing scary for anakaris/sonson. luckily I pulled out some tricks with sonson/tron