BET ITTTTTT!!! i didn’t bother reading that pm. i like deviljin over you:tup:
It’s not really a big deal. It’s just that he’s calling you out because you really didn’t address actual differences between the characters, and what makes the matchups not just good or bad, but better/worse.
Opinions are fine but, there’s really countless reasons why some matchups are simply easier or harder than others for Ibuki. And if you’re going to sit there and tell us that it’s entirely dependent on player skill and nothing else, then all I can do is say that you’re just plain wrong and leaving a lot of details out.
There really should be no doubt that some matches are easier/harder than others, and there’s really simple and logical reasons why. Ibuki being able to slide under Ryu’s fireball and SA.1 and SA.3, but not Akuma’s SA.1 make a difference. Akuma having an air fireball which shuts down a lot of Ibuki’s anti-air options make a difference. Small characters like Yun, Chun, and Oro crouching under LP and the LP-MP-HP chain but large characters like Dudley, Hugo, and Q not crouching under it makes a difference. And again, small characters crouching under and recovering in between the hits of qcb+2K like Makoto, but not large characters like Ken, makes a difference. Ibuki being able to poke Dudley and Alex on the ground and stuff all jumpins for free except air parries, but not being able to do the same against Yun or Makoto makes a huge difference. Hugo having absolutely no answer for rdp+K and having a hard time stuffing it on reaction during setups makes a difference.
And really, each character in 3S is rather unique so of course matchups are going to be different from character to character. You can’t really just say it’s based on player skill unless it’s a mirror match. Because if you have difference characters then SOME ONE is going to have a handicap while the other isn’t. That’s just how matchups are.
No one thinks Elena is a bad match-up for Buk-buk? I find it quite difficult.
Good post; let me add more (I’m an Oro player BTW so I know what kills me haha)
DevilJin is right on the money about using SA3… us Oro’s love our pokes, especially RH because it’s virtually unpunishable… except from this super. If I had a nickel for every time I got punished from random poking by Ibuki, I’d have a lot of nickels. Furthermore, SA1 combos won’t work very well because Oro is very short… and the only time you’ll probably land them is through random lucky charm shit.
One effective tool you can use against Oro that I think worked very well (shout out to Tenren who kicks my ass) is EX kunai right before you land. Every Oro loves to parry or walk under or do something to a jump-in opponent because that means MP->death, especially against Ibuki who has garbage life. However, EX kunai not only makes her pause in mid air, it also leads to combos (IIRC). In other words, when the Oro is attempting a parry or doing a MP, he eats 2 kunais instead.
The goal is to stay away from Oro and jump a lot. Although Oro’s got a competent air game I personally think Ibuki’s is better. Plus if you keep them scared of using pokes or fireballs because of SA3 chances are you’re not going to get owned by pokes and fireballs when you go airborne. Ibuki has a lot going for her in this matchup… just be careful about that MP.
Yeah? Well your mama… (I kid)
He’s only calling me out because I’m “a nobody” and he’s making an assumption, which hey; that’s fine.
Player skill is NOT 100% going to decide the match, but I’ll be damned if some noob using Chun is automatically going to beat Sean, just because of Tier and “charts” saying so…
That’s all I was really getting at…
And what I was really getting at was… it’s true they won’t automatically win, but they will be very handicapped in the match due to the differences between characters.
Yeah a complete noob wouldn’t be able to take advantage of those differences. A complete noob wouldn’t know how to capitalize on the characters strengths and weaknesses. But anyone with just a little bit of experience and knowledge can definitely make that a hugely handicapped match.
Just like how a noob Yun isn’t going to get free wins, no. But if two Sean players of totally equal skill level meet and have totally even match results for multiple sets, and then one of them starts picking Yun and learns some basic GJ things, you really think they are going to continue having even match results? Fuck no they won’t.
You’d have to see it happen. You can’t call that kinda match on speculation, even if comparing the overall Tier of the characters themselves.
THAT sir, is when player skill takes over. What if the guy still using Sean is comfortable against Yun; what if he’s a great Yun player but just not using him? You think he’ll be destroyed? I don’t.
See, that’s why Ramza said what he did.
It isn’t speculation, it’s tournament experience.
And you still miss the point. You know those little stars that you can adjust on the console version called handicap? Yeah picking a character that has tools to shut down the opponent and create clear-cut advantages is a lot like a handicap.
Yeah the Sean player could win with the handicap turned way way up, if he’s really significantly better than his opponent. But there’s STILL a handicap. It’s much much much much MUCH harder to win, but not impossible.
I’m not missing any point.
Someone told you guys not to use Door B because someone would punch you in the face if you did; so you use Door A daily.
That’s all you’re saying.
If enough people happen to come along and say Door B is actually a shortcut, I bet you’ll start going that way…
For further detail in the perspective I’m using, please view the first Matrix movie; the part where Morpheus and Neo fight. (yes stupid allusion, but he explains it well enough that intelligent people will see what I mean).
i couldn’t care less about if you were a “name” or not. your inexperience is obvious, which isn’t the problem. Stay in your little fantasy land if it makes you happy; but I guarantee you if you ever played real 3S you would quit in a hurry. You should probably quit, I can’t really see you getting better with your mindset=/
Yes you are missing the point, because NO that is NOT what I am saying. From your post it’s obvious that you assume I mean something else entirely, and that is, in itself, missing the point.
I main Ibuki for crying out loud, how could you even say something like that?
I will say it one last time. If you are much better than your opponent then you can win regardless of a handicap because skill compensates for a handicap, but a handicap caused from a bad matchup can also compensate for a lot of skill (and lack thereof), and weaker opponents can get wins from better opponents just because the matchup is so incredibly poor.
But this is beginning to sound like a broken record and I’m very tired of repeating myself, it’s obvious that you’ll just misinterpret/misunderstand regardless of how I explain it.
Quite the disgusting gesture, but atleast your true colors; I’ve dealt with elitist trash like yourself in the past though; so it’s no skin off my nose.
Been to EvO: Austin, and been to Texas Showdown in Houston. Played “real” people, won some, lost some. Whether you wanna dream up a world in which I have to think like you to have done such things or not, is completely up to you.
Ramza, you haven’t the slightest clue of how “good” I am, you’ve never played me, and unless you show up at Austin, Houston, or any other locations within a drive from San Antonio, I doubt you will. And if you; be sure to bring some cash.
So please save the assumptions, as I’m sure you know what the only use of those are.
Xeno, I DO see what you’re saying, you’re both refusing to believe in alternate possibilities though. NATURAL handicap exists, no fucking shit. 12 and Q are never going to win at EvO, I’m sure of that. What I’m saying is that is IS COMPLETELY FEASIBLE FOR THEM TO ACTUALLY DO IT IF THEY WORKED HARD ENOUGH FOR IT. What you’re saying is that the thought of that is COMPLETELY 100% IMPOSSIBLE, which it is NOT. All I’m saying is that with certain people, using certain styles with certain characters, can do ALOT MORE and ALOT BETTER than some bullshit tier chart says they will; that’s all.
A top player against another top player using a lower ranked character can still win, and easily at that, it all depends on the person.
I AM NOT SAYING THE TIERS DO NOT EXIST, I AM NOT SAYING NATURAL CHARACTER HANDICAPS DO NOT EXIST, I’m simply saying there are FAR more possibilities when it comes to characters and the people using them.
Any since myself and you two are agreeing that the other side doesn’t understand what they themselves are saying; we should probably just stop.
These two statements are contradictory.
No I am not saying that. You just don’t bother reading/comprehending.
I’m NOT saying it’s impossible to win. I AM saying you have to be significantly better than your opponent to win in a bad matchup. Where as if you have a good matchup you don’t necessarily have to be better in order to win.
Yeah, I’m done with you.
LOL. DRC is the same way in the Kaillera forums. He’s just a very opinionated person. There’s definitely nothing wrong with having an opinion…it’s just obvious that Ibuki is not an unstoppable force or even really good. She has really good options and attacks but also has glaring disadvantages that keep her from reaching the top spots in tournaments. There’s nothing wrong with that though as long as you like the character and find your own way to work around the matchups. Believe in yourself is all u need.
The chart isn’t the end all be all of matchups but it definitely helps give you an idea of where your character stands in any given matchup. It’s pretty obvious that a really strong Chun player would simply win more often in a race to 10 vs. a really strong Ibuki player. Unless the Ibuki player is near psychic and really working the Chun player into a rut…there’s just way too many things Chun has going for her to keep winning. Ibuki has to come up with so much shit and draw the match out at times to keep things in her favor. Whereas Chun can just do what she does and in the hands of a strong player…will come out with wins. DRC isn’t the only person to have brought up the fact that the individual player plays a big part in what the outcome of a match is. The matchup chart is only based on averages any ways and statistics have never been the end all be all of any competitive event. It’s just simply averages based on matches between high level players. Japanese usually do single match single elimination in tournaments so that helps give more incentive to play lower tiers in the first place.
Hmm statement was not contradictory, I said q and 12 will never win. They won’t; ever. Why? No one will try hard enough to learn that well, to win with them. Why would they? When they can OMG FOLLOW THE TIER CHARTS and use some character that’s rated easier to win with.
That sir, is the fucking end of competitive gaming in itself.
My entire argument in one sentence.
Once 3rd Strike starts giving out 100,000 dollar cash prizes…I’ll be first one to say that people would be running to top tiers with the quickness. Even if it’s not what the crowd wants…very few people in the US especially would put their money on their skilled Elena when Chun can do about the same and more. Unless they know a specific matchup where Elena would help them to win moreso than Chun.
People are going to use the better tools if they know it’ll get them the win in the end. Tier whoring isn’t going to stop people from liking 3rd Strike any ways. I think people understand now that 3rd Strike isn’t the super balanced game everyone thought it was years ago. When everyone thought parries completely balanced out all the characters. Parrying gives any character a chance to get out of a sticky situation but overall it just makes the better characters that much scarier. Now…everyone just wants to be the next Daigo. :lol: Overall I think the people that do like the game like it for more than its character diversity (or lack of it…whichever way you look at it). The game is a very back and forth game and anything can really happen at any time. Everyone wants to make sense of the crazy random game and be the next guy that full parries down a super and comes back to win from nothing.
3S has one of the diluted talent pools of any game that people play today. That’s a BAD thing to me. I love the game and always have, but it gets to a point where that diluted pool makes the game seem worse than it is. johnny doughnuts enters 3s and cvs2, he gets reamed in cvs and decides to quit right then and there. he gets the random parry in 3s and gets off from it. so, despite constantly losing, he sticks around but NEVER GETS BETTER. There are too many of these types of players IMO. Aruka didn’t get better by playing johnny doughnuts over and over, I can promise you that much.
I think DRCsyntax does sort of have a point with his last couple of posts though, and I personally find his mindset interesting.
You don’t necessarily have to be significantly better than your opponent to win a bad matchup. Confliciting playstyles, different abilities and sets of knowledge are huge variables that most people on these forums never seem to take into account for some reason. Even at the highest level, players do better against certain playstyles, characters or even individuals, and to me that is the beauty of fighting games!
The players are the most important entity here, but their performance is overlooked most of the time because a good percentage of the community can’t look past the characters. When you start knowing what to look for, it’s really the players that make the game interesting and exciting, not the characters. Personally, I find it quite sad when I see people posting that “Rikimaru is a lot less skilled than Aruka just because he wins with Chun”, because for having played against both of them irl I know that it just isn’t true. Same thing when I read stuff like “KO and Nuki are boring”… Sometimes I really wonder if we are all watching the same matches or not.
It’s not really as simple as “I beat that guy’s Chun with Q so I’m much better than him”. When you read SRK nowadays it’s like everything is completely set in stone and very few people believe in themselves and their character. Whenever anyone goes against the general concensus they get flamed… It’s no wonder most of the beginners are afraid of learning new characters in that kind of atmosphere. And it is hurting the community in the long run because a lot of people are getting bored.
ramza’s comment on the diluted talent pool is also right on the money IMO, it would seem it’s especially an issue in the 3s community for some reason.
Sorry for the long rant but I thought the topic was interesting. Anyway, I guess that was my Deviljin post of the day. :lol:
I tend to k groove rage on stupidity…his lack of articulation didn’t help=/. I don’t disagree with that mindset at all. Regardless of the whole tier-whoring issue, I always believe that the better player wins. On that note, I actually think “tier-whoring” could be a good thing, as it forces the entire community to get better. Those who aren’t willing to/can’t get better stop playing, and the quality of play in general rises. The diluted talent pool right now means there is alot of dead weight in tournaments. I’m not including newcomers trying to get better, those people are the most important in my mind. Now I understand that may come off as “elitist”, however I think there’s enough players out there for 3S where one day if this magically became the reality that the turnout wouldn’t drop THAT drastically. I would love to enter more 3S tournaments that felt like a CvS2 or Marvel tournament; our latest C3 tournament kind of had that feel with about 5 people that have all won a previous c3 and alot of new promising players on the come up.
That is definitely not the reason why Q and 12 don’t win matches. If it were just about trying really hard, then we would have some really interesting japanese tourney results. The tier chart would also be thrown away pretty much.
Go ahead and use Twelve/Sean and you’ll see why they’re so low on the tier chart. They pretty much do not deal any damage. That’s why they’re bad. Effort has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of people who play those characters BECAUSE they’re low tier and try really hard and now what they’re doing, but sometimes the matchups are just too much and they can’t win most games.