If Vortexes had to remain, how would you fix them if they should be fixed at all?


#1

Lets just say a vortex is a semi-safe to safe multiple attack/mixup strategy from a knockdown that can repeat itself if it lands or that puts you and the opponent in a neutral state if they block it all.

Question for discussion
How would you go about tweaking the characteristics of the vortex so that it didn’t bother you as much? On the flip side, if you feel the power of vortexes are being blown out of proportion somewhat, state your opinions on this matter as well.

Remaining Post Organization
This post is organized into possible direct changes to vortexes and possible indirect system changes that will have a strong affect on vortexes. Next, the minority side of simply “manning up” and improving one’s defense is promoted. Lastly, the idea of giving certain characters better escape (ESCAPE, not reversal) options from their specials (most likely ex specials) is proposed as another method for dealing with vortexes.

To change a vortex directly or indirectly, that is the question.
As has been shown by others, there are actually two ways to change vortexes. You can change them directly by tweaking them in some way, but you can also indirectly change them by enacting system-wide changes. This in my opinion is a more extreme way of dealing with vortexes as it not only affects them, but affects the entire game and overall feel of SF4. It has been suggested that a safer way of going about this is focusing on changes on a character-by-character basis and not so much as on a system-wide basis. None-the-less, they will still be taken into account.

Direct Vortex Changes
[list]
[*]** 1) Limit the amount of guesswork involved in a vortex (most hard to explain suggestion): **
Very basic untrue example: If a Vortex has two attacks, each of which involves 2 truly safe truly 50/50 mixups, then you have a 50% chance of avoiding the first mixup multiplied by a 50% chance of avoiding the second mixup. You are left with a 25% chance of avoiding the vortex. Obviously SF is 10 times more complicated than this otherwise vortex characters would have 8-2 and 9-1 advantages pretty much, but it still feels like the guesswork is a little too imbalanced on the defenders side.

One option for fixing this can involve limiting the amount of mixup choices for one attack in the sequence of the vortex. Hypothetical example: Let’s say you’re at attack number 3 in your vortex sequence of 4 strong mixup attacks. At this point, you have the choice of low, dp, command throw, or regular throw. That’s 4 options. A nerf is enacted that changes the range of the command throw and/or regular throw. One or both of these no longer becomes an option at this point in the vortex and thus reduces your mixup options from 4 down to 3 or 2.

The other way is limiting the total amount of mixup attacks within the vortex sequence as a whole. A hypothetical example would be increasing pushback to where blocking two mixups in the vortex now puts the attacker out of range for what would normally have been their third mixup. This vortex just decreased from 3 mixup attacks down to 2.

[*]2) Limit the damage payoff of vortexes:
This is simply another option, not the end all be all answer.

[*]3) Make the ability to reset the vortex be harder to achieve
If the vortex has many options of which all can reset the vortex, than perhaps make some of those options just do damage but cause the opponent to be free of the vortex.
[/list]
Quick note: I understand that nerfing the vortex side of characters most likely means buffing their more “honest” playstyles in order to compensate for this.

Indirect System Changes that Strongly Affect Vortexes

[list]
[*]1) Lower frame count on knockdowns to where safe jumps are still possible but vortex shenanigans are not (or at least are more difficult/situational).
While this may seem insignificant, it is honestly a radical change and would affect the entire flow of SF4 and have many unforeseen consequences for better or worse. It’s also questionable as to whether this change is even effective/possible. Some vortexes might be able to come out just as quick as safe jumps in the first place. Also, this entirely affects the setups of every character in the game with respect to their options on the opponent’s wakeup, not just vortex characters.

[*]2) Allow multiple wakeup timing options in addition to just quickrise
generic examples: 1) super-quickrise: faster than quick. 2) semi-quickrise: a rise somewhere in between quick and slow. This opens up a can of worms and can honestly go so far as to risk giving the opponent on defense too many defensive options. What normally would have been an offensive situation from a knockdown could now end up borderline neutral situation. Also, many attacks such as sweeps and throws and certain normals/specials are purposely made to only allow for one type of rise. You are meant to have a high reward for landing these attacks for whatever reason. However there is always the possibility that if done correctly and highly situationally, this could make the game richer. On the other hand, it might end up making the game too complex; there’s a fine line between richness and tedious complexity in fighting games.

[*]3) Allow for rolls.
This would be game-changing, and I tend to err more on the side of game-ruining when I think game-changing. However Capcom has had experience implementing rolls in their past fighters as well as their most recent fighter SFxT. I believe Eternal makes a good point that adding rolls tends to homogenize the metagame towards safe pokes and fast high lows while hurting knockdown mixup and pressure. The question remains as to whether SF4 fans want their game to have rolls (assuming it could be done correctly), or if they genuinely prefer and appreciate their game without rolls. I have the feeling that it is too early for Capcom to be incorporating game-changing aspects such as rolls from their other fighters into SF4.
[/list]

I am not afraid of vortexes! Man Up!
The minority who take the stance of simply manning up should not be discounted. Improve your gameplay. Vortexes absolutely destroy beginners but can be managed better as a player’s skill improves. It is good to keep this in mind. While the verdict is still out as to whether vortexes are slightly too unfair and/or braindead stupid, we need to accept that some form of them has always been in Sf incarnates and will most likely always remain. It does not have to be a bad thing; vortexes are a good test of your patience, courage, and defensive prowess.

Forget this! Give me the strength to run away!
Here’s another interesting thing to consider. While vortexes are strong, their strength is nullified by the ability to completely escape them! ex) I’ve recently picked up Yang. His ex dash is one of the best escape tools out there. If I’ve got some meter and I don’t feel like dealin with a pesky vortex I see coming, I ex dash to freedom on wakeup. Many characters in this game have powerful ex escape moves. However, many of these moves are not full proof, and if there’s a way to punish them, pros will definitely find a way. Maybe all some characters who suffer from vortexes need are better escape options (most likely involving meter).


#2

No.


#3

I don’t really care for most of those options. For me the simplest solution would be: lower the frame count on knockdowns dramatically in a similar fashion to ST. Safe jumps still possible of course but without all the time in the world to whiff normals or move around the vortexes become much harder to keep frame tight and thus become less safe to do.


#4

Also make it so that the mixups come from different defense requirements for discrete options - after EX Tatsu, Ken can’t just press a button and see if it hits high or low. Same with Akuma’s demon flip - depending on trajectory seen beforehand, the mixup can be land front or back where it’s a standard throw-or-low, or palm/throw. But you won’t have to worry about the throw if he goes to crossup because it just won’t hit.

Stuff like cannon strike and kunais, the mixup is just which side a move will land can be done more in a braindead fashion, because the mixup happens anyway. You can control them, and it’s beneficial in most cases, but then the defender has to start studying the exact setups for which normals were whiffed and stuff. With a demon flip mixup for example, you can see which way he’s flying for a good half a second which is just a more visceral way to see what to expect. And because the mixup rests wholly within the player, they have to play the mindgames to open you up.

I like lowering framecounts on kd. Seems good.


#5

Vortex is in part a response to the inability to force your opponent to accept pressure. This game has way too many defensive options that invalidate much of the classic style SF pressure and hence we have vortex.

If we remove the vortex then we should also allow classic pressure to be more effective, which would also mean nerfing the shit out of backdashes and adding some active frames and blockstun to grounded normals.


#6

Just remove vortexes all together. Nobody wants them. The players that do are the ones who abuse them the most and don’t want any major system changes affecting their win rates.

The game would be greatly improved if you could delay your wakeup timing, add a roll, and remove invincibility from dashes. Something that’s far easier than tweaking each individual character’s vortex options.


#7

I am not sure if I want vortexes completely gone, and I don’t play vortex characters. I appreciate the idea that if a character capitalizes on your poor play and scores a knockdown, they should be at an advantage. I think characters like Akuma are meant to truly punish you for your bad play and a vortex is one of the most punishing strategies to use. I don’t want to make Akuma into something he’s not, and I feel like he would lose his “Akumaness” if his vortex was completely taken away.

Ultimately I just want vortex toned down in some way but to still sort of have that vortex feel where you know you’re in trouble, but at least it doesn’t seem as pointlessly rock-paper-scissor as before. The most general suggestion I stick by is to nerf/tone down (not remove) the vortex aspect of a vortex character and buff a more honest fighting aspect of theirs.


#8

You’re knocked down. That already gives the other player the advantage. They’re given complete control of the match at that point in time. What makes Akuma is that he has an air fireball, demon flip, dive kick, and a spin kick that gives juggle states. That’s about it. He already has plenty of tools at his disposal for the neutral game and to maintain offensive pressure. He doesn’t need a myriad of options post knockdown in order to make him Akuma.


#9

SF4 made people think Akuma is about vortexing, while in fact he is about having a universal toolset which in a frame perfect world would make him the ‘ultimate character’ since he literally has an answer to everything… lol


#10

Give me damage off the fair game, tweak a couple things to be more solid and I won’t shed a single tear for the vortex. I just want a shoto that walks fast :stuck_out_tongue: Besides, air fireballs are fun.


#11

Rolls hurt the ability to do mixups and ultimately homogenize the metagame towards safe pokes and fast high lows (as SFxT has shown, thankfully the throw vulnerability on rolls was added and has alleviated SOME of the issue but it still hurts the advantage you gain from a knockdown. If it wasn’t for the massive juggles and corner carry you can get in SFxT people would really see how much it really hurts the mixups and pressure options.

The reason I bring this up is that characters should still get positional advantage and the opportunity for a mixup off of a knockdown. That is why I suggest lowering the knockdown duration for most hard knockdowns and even speeding up techable knockdowns slightly. On the plus side for offense this means that the defending player has less time to figure out what you are doing and decide how to defend. However on the flipside it should be done in such a way that it’s difficult to do frame perfect safe jumps with mixups and OSes built in (E.G. Ibuki’s Kunai throw - fj.LK OS Neckbreaker which is a safe jump mixup.)

Removing vortex is simply not an EASY thing to fix without hurting non-vortex type mixups imo.


#12

Bring back Vanilla damage for everyone except vortex characters.


#13

Who needs a vortex when the King can do more damage with less work involved?


#14

I’d start by not getting knocked into the dirt by improving my play…


#15

Or perhaps by having a get out of jail free teleport. Those help a lot too :wink:


#16

not sure if salty about something or if implying i main someone other than makoto

It’s just I don’t really see the point of removing something when there’s not only a way out, but also a way to stop it in the first place…


#17

There is a simple solution to dealing with zoning, don’t get anti aired.

The whole “don’t get knocked down” thing is terrible advice. It doesn’t tell anyone anything and it WILL happen. You will get knocked down. You can minimize the situations that lead to knockdowns(you don’t HAVE to walk forward into a sweep or never throw tech.) but the idea that you can just “not get knocked down” is simply a fantasy solution, not a practical one.


#18

Naa I aint salty. Just wanted to poke fun that one of the strongest vortex characters in this game also has one of the best teleports for escaping pressure. And yes I agree, if you play perfectly then how would you end up getting put in a vortex in the first place… unless the vortex character plays perfectly too maybe?


#19

Most people crying for vortex never played sf2 where there are some crazy lockdown techniques every where I will happily take vortex in sf4 over sagat lockdown in turbo or guile or heck even the throws in sf2 was scary. Learn to deal with it guys its not the end of the world


#20

There is a simple solution to a post you don’t like, just click “Post Comment” without thinking about what the poster is trying to say.

I don’t remember saying anything about a “simple solution”; hell, if memory serves, I haven’t even used either of those words on SRK until I made this very post. I said I’d get around vortexes by improving my play, and part of improving my play is reducing how free I am against vortexes and their untechables (that I see myself getting punished with at times). That requires better defense and not throwing around unsafe stuff that’ll just get blocked and punished, then leave poor Makoto writhing on the floor waiting for the dreaded kunai to end her days. Naturally, such would improve my overall play.

And last I checked, I was leaving my opinion on a thread in which I was free to leave it, not explicitly giving advice. It may surprise you to know that I don’t have delusions of leading lost sheep to some holy land.

Even knowing my “place” as a random lurking noobmaster, I’d think there to be a fine line (more like a thick line) between “vague and unhelpful” and “fantasy,” sir.

“Not getting knocked down” wasn’t the part to emphasize, it’s this part: “By improving my play,” that kinda helps with that first part. A vortex, however absurdly ambiguous they can be (honestly I’m still trying to work around those Akumas), can still be dealt with. It’s kind of a guessing game, but I’ve learned to just put on my sunglasses and say “Deal with it.” …And then get finished off by the damnable vortex anyway because I made the wrong move (derp). I invite you to tell me I’m wrong about something, but since there’s more to read into this time, you should probably do so.

…With that said, I think this would be more to the point of the thread: It would be cool if some mechanics that helped deal with vortexes were added, but I get the feeling that bad things will happen should they actually be implemented. I think vortexes can stay and Super Street Fighter IV will be just fine.

…I’m having flashbacks…
sagat what are you doing
balrog why do you rise from fighting game hell to torment me
make the hurting stop