If Vortexes had to remain, how would you fix them if they should be fixed at all?

Vortex in SF4 is some baby shit compared to previous fighters shit.
Just learn how to deal with it instead of making this game any more laughable.

Let’s see add a roll hmmm remove invincibility from backdash = Zangief top tier
If you roll hello spd, if you backdash hello spd. Or hey since roll and backdash has air borne frames hello jab into siberian blizzard os on wake up,
You got to give credit to capcom balancing a game around 30+ characters ain’t easy. No matter what you do people will always find something to abuse and top tiers will always be there and people to complain as well.

Vortexes would be fine if the other playstyles actually worked better.

There you go, this is the big problem. Since ST was mentioned, we had Vega with his effective vortex, we had Old Sagat with his insane low tiger zoning, Dhalsim with his bevy of normals for zoning at distances, Balrog rush down tick throw head butt, etc.

You can’t make everyone in the same tier category in a game with 39 characters, that just won’t happen unless you take away how unique some characters are and make everyone a clone. Top tiers will exist and they’ll have their strengths.

But isn’t Ryu viable who’s projectile based character?
Isn’t Fei viable and also a top tier at the same time without being vortex based?

It’s a miracle the number of viable characters this game has that Can win tournaments in the right hands, but people will always complain about the top tiers in a way that makes the rest feel useless or are much inferior, but that’s not the case at all in v2012.

The term vortex is being used really loosely nowadays. Justin Wong referred to Yun’s XU/non-XU dk as a vortex since the oki repeats itself but its vulnerable to reversals and can be back dashed or FA backdashed. On top of that a blocked dk often leaves Yun at a disadvantage if he attempts to cross up meaning a good block gets rewarded. This in my opinion is perfectly fine and leaves room for the opponent to act while Yun’s oki still is considered good. The problem lies in oki/“vortex” that you can’t reversal or escape AND that leaves the attacker at an advantage even if the one on defense blocks correctly.

I really like the suggestion to reduce knockdown time. First it would make most unblockables impossible since it would make it harder to land meaty jump-in cross ups. Secondly it would improve the pace of sf4 considerably, making it more enjoyable to play and watch.

vortex literally means “(usually strong) oki that on hit leads back into itself”

Going through ST/3S/SF4 and testing Ryu’s forward throw yielded this for me:

ST = Ryu recovers 55F before opponent
3S = Ryu recovers 50F before opponent
SF4 = Ryu recovers 62F before opponent

Considering that ST Ryu’s throw put the opponent nearly full screen (also there was throw softening which caused you to recover before you even hit the ground) while SF4 puts them right in front of him it seems silly that SF4 has so much more time to do a setup. And it’s not like Ryu’s throw is even on the high end of the spectrum. Rufus’ forward throw according to the wiki recovers 74F before the opponent can move.

I still play SFII and I prefer basic lockdown/zoning traps over vortex, corner gimmicks and unblockables any day of the week. Proper zoning takes more skill than knockdown -> fureimu shoukei -> x-up.

I like your post, lots of knowledge in it. I embarrassingly like to think of myself as one of those holy sheep herders, but for all I know I could be and most likely am one of the stupid sheep myself lol! I think your stance of simply voicing opinions and discussing is the best mindset to have.

I always thought it also included a degree of safety for the attacker that makes it impossible to reversal out of it. E.g. Ibuki kunai vortex against certain characters is unescapable unless you block correctly. According to that definition it would not be correct to refer to Yun’s XU/non-XU dk as a vortex.

As far as I know, Yun´s combo enders aren´t hard knockdowns, unlike Ibuki´s Neckbreaker or some Tsumuji variants.

Yes, of course but you can actually time your dks incase they decide to not tech their kd (although it’s kind of hard). Still, Yun’s oki is highly susceptible to reversals which IMO makes it far more acceptable than your regular vortex. I don’t even know why Ibuki can so easily combo into untechable kds but making those kds techable would definitely make people hate Ibuki less.

Which oki isn´t “highly susceptible”?

Isn’t Akuma’s demon flip kick an example? Doesn’t it avoid wakeup dp’s or am I completely wrong? Also, certain okies of all characters revolve around blockstrings specifically designed to push them just out of range of ppl mashing on dp, but captilize as well if ppl simply don’t block them correctly. In any case, my point is there are definitely ways to keep a strong offense while at the same time mitigating reversal dp risk somewhat.

Certain setups for it do. It doesn’t by default. Those setups that avoid DPs aren’t safe jumps. The safe jump setup is a palm hit to the front and thus eats reversal SRK.

If you play a red oily man, then one of your ultras give the term defense a new meaning. Of course they have to jump first,lol.

I’m not going to split hairs on the exact definition of “safe jump”. I’m aware of the “safe jump” that involves recovering in time from your jump attack to be able to block certain reversals should the opponent do them. However, these demon flip kick setups might as well be a different type of safe jump. They avoid the dp should it come out, but they allow you to continue pressure should the opponent block. If you don’t want to label those setups “safe jumps”, then what would you label them?

What??? Red oily man??? The only oil fighting I know of is Turkish oil wrestling, and I’m pretty sure sumo wrestling beats that.

I said it in the rebalance thread, you better think of some good buffs for Dudley, Hawk, Gief and other characters who are low/mid tier and still have their gameplans revolve around their mixups if you want vortex setups to be nerfed, because otherwise you’re nerfing bad characters along with good ones.