"I'm not Gouken..." Oni General Discussion Thread

oni

#981

Basic BnBs
cr.LK, cr.LK, cr.FP xx HK Tatsu/MK Ground Pound
st.LP, st.LP, TC1/TC2 xx HK Tatsu

If you want more just go to the combo thread. It’s full of combos and their damage/stun. Have fun learning Oni and get ready to lose…alot.


#982

I know these are a noob questions but there are something I cannot understand, please help me. Thanks

  1. I saw this clip
    [media=youtube]x3LpOQ273fc[/media]

a) At 0:22 Why Shinochan use Neutral Jump attack ? In Dive Kick characters they can neutral jump to use dive kick but Oni has no dive kick, why did not he jump forward ? And I saw he did it many time in this match

b) At 0:27 why he performs a whiff normal ? Is it a mistake or he tried to trap Gen

  1. I am practicing Oni meaty attack crLP and CrLK after knock down opponent into the ground. How can I practice the timing ?

  2. About safe jump, I heard that in SSF4 some opponent wake up fast and some slow, how can I check that ?

  3. About safe jump and option select. I am using fj MK option select Tatsu to avoid back dash but if the opponent use Focus and back dash, the tatsu does not appear and they escape. How can I stop that trick ?

  4. I am still messing about the timing for Option select Tatsu after fj MK, which is the time to input the special command ?


#983
  1. I saw this clip

a) At 0:22 Why Shinochan use Neutral Jump attack ? In Dive Kick characters they can neutral jump to use dive kick but Oni has no dive kick, why did not he jump forward ? And I saw he did it many time in this match

I’ve notice this in a lot of Shinochan’s matches. He loves nj.mp. I think it’s the knock down effect and the high priority hitbox air to air. He just uses it to control spacing and to encourage gen to open up. If Gen stays on the ground Oni has to rely on his shitty fireballs to open Gen up.

b) At 0:27 why he performs a whiff normal ? Is it a mistake or he tried to trap Gen

He was trying to whiff punish Gens poke and get gen to try and jump in at the same time. Once he trains gen to try and jump over his pokes he anti airs him with h.dp and then goes in once gen is on the defensive. It’s an easy poke to whiff punish if you know the Oni matchup. I think when Shinochan sees it’s not going to be punished he decides to style on him.

  1. I am practicing Oni meaty attack crLP and CrLK after knock down opponent into the ground. How can I practice the timing ?

Meaty attacks are easy to time offline. Online you can never be 100% sure it’ll beat wake up throw / slow no invincibility reversals.

  1. About safe jump, I heard that in SSF4 some opponent wake up fast and some slow, how can I check that ?

Yes this is true. Sagat and Cammy I think are two characters that wake up 1 frame slower for example. That knowledge isn’t going to mean anything unless you take the time to practice safe jumps over and over on everyone in the cast. You get the added bonus of having automatic surefire accuracy on your safe jumps and you get to figure out what works on who and when. It’s almost like link timing. Someone can tell you how easy or hard the link timing on a combo can be but you can’t expect to be able to do it without practicing it first.

  1. About safe jump and option select. I am using fj MK option select Tatsu to avoid back dash but if the opponent use Focus and back dash, the tatsu does not appear and they escape. How can I stop that trick ?

What are you doing as a follow up in your safe jump? If they are focusing everything then you may want to delay the tatsu so it comes out no matter what or just change the option select to sweep. The option select for sweep is j.mk cr.lp > cr.lp + cr.hk > st.lp > b+mp xx fb / demon slash. If you notice at 35 seconds in after the f.dp Shinochan goes for cr.lp cr.lp + cr.hk option select right away.

  1. I am still messing about the timing for Option select Tatsu after fj MK, which is the time to input the special command ?

You input tatus right after pressing mk as if you are cancelling the j.mk. Your best bet is to keep practicing it. Setup the opponent as Oni and select your main character as Bison for example. Use the record function to practice the motion and timing. For the option select you’re using do a combo leading into mk.sekisei Jiraiken (overhead smash). Jump in with mk then immediately do a high kick tatsu followed up by cr.lk > cr.lp. Stop recording. Go to playback and let Oni get the untechable knock down you just as you recorded. When he goes to jump in on you just block. If Oni’s tatsu comes out instead of cr.lk > cr.lp you waited to long to tatsu after j.mk and you have to re record yourself doing the option select until you get that part right. If and when cr.lk > cr.lp comes out then let Oni combo you again. This time after being knocked down try to mash out teleport / psycho crusher / head stomp etc and see whether the os works for you. Keep recording the setup until everytime you record the safe jump / option select it does what you want.

It’s not super hard to practice. It’s just more convoluted then just learning simple link timing.


#984

Finally having 2012 Oni on PC is sooooo nice! :smiley:


#985

Another noob question again

I am working with my footsie and zoning.I have several questions about this:

What should I notice when watching a clip of another player ? How to watch the clip properly ?
What should I do in the lab ?


#986

look at how the players relate to each other in terms of space. top players zone like crazy…when you see them standing just outside of poke range and doing that little walk back and forth thing, they are fighting for position by manipulating space.

also try and perceive the rhythm of their strikes. notice how they stay on the rhythm and whiff jabs in order to bait a poke, which they then punish. also pay special attention to broken rhythm. once a rhythm has been well established you can feel them looking for a moment to interrupt the beat and catch the opponent either flat footed or mid-stride.

BnB, BnB, and more BnB. in the first few months with a new character you should be drilling bread and butter combos till you’re blue in the face, because in a match there should never be any doubt as to whether or not your combos will come out. drill them until they become almost like a boring joke to execute, but make each rep count so that you don’t waste time setting your muscle memory.

also try setting the cpu to easiest difficulty and try to hit it with the very tip of each normal. this will help you figure out where your wheelhouse is and how to maintain spacing.

one thing to take note of with oni is that he actually has two wheelhouses to play footsies with, and they are both defined by the range of f.hp. outside of its range, you want your opponent to walk right into it, while mixing in f.hk, s.mk, and few(and I mean very few) sweeps thrown in to mix it up. inside of its range, you’ll see that except for s.mk there isn’t much use for the long range tools that I just mentioned, as their recovery is brutal and you will be punished. f.mk is a nice way to transition from one wheelhouse to the other, just don’t go thinking your ken with it or again, you will be punished.


#987

Did Oni make it on stream at all over the weekend at Final Round? I know Combofiend made just outside top 8.


#988

@ Amun G. Osiris

I was just rummaging through the forums here and had to tell you that your advice on just this page is so godlike that I am going to recommend it to my friends.

Definitely listen to this man about what to look for and how top players play, I have never encountered such a clear and precise description of high level play, bravo!


#989

Oni > sfxt


#990

Yay, I made it into Liang Hubbb’s Funny and Cool moments #51! I’m at 3:20 with hilarious scrub slashes :smiley:

[media=youtube]OZ7mLUukwnI[/media]

Original video @ ~21:00

[media=youtube]GXzdF9pLh0g[/media]


#991

Damn, man… Combofiend just totally obliterated Valle with Oni @ NCR10 O_o


#992

That he did. Oni is probably overrated insofar that people think he’s all mad combostrings. Like, what’s wrong with good buttons, good srk, tatsu and some ok fireballs that are ace in a fireball war? Then you can just do simple stuff with slash and stomp. Doesn’t sound like a bad kind of game when backed with 1k HP. And THEN there’s the combo madness :stuck_out_tongue:


#993

Mostly I think it’s that his hitbox vs hurtbox data is terrible. You have to totally outplay all of your opponents because his hurtboxes are so big on most of his moves that none of them win versus any decent move your opponent might choose to throw out. Like, literally f+LK is his only “good poke” :\


#994

So yeah, as you know combofiend was repping Oni. So tell me, what did he do wrong here that made him lose. Is oni really tournament viable or did Combofiend play him perfectly but still lost because it’s oni. Tell me.


#995

What is it about f+lk do you like? It’s startup is not impressive for a low damage move(5 frames). It’s damage is bad 50. It’s not cancelable into anything except super and the range is shitty too. Even if all those things weren’t true it would still be a shitty poke compared to f+fp or f+fk or even st.lk (+3 on hit). I’d love to hear about why this is a good poke though cause I don’t see it being used at a high level compared to his other pokes and I imagine if it is used it’s by accident trying to poke with st.lk.

combofiend played oni well but didn’t captialize off of a lot of well placed f+mk pokes against infiltration. Each time he was in I kept thinking here it is combofiend is gonna open him up, but it never really happened. Against Latif he just got out played. Latif only plays sf4 and only plays Viper so even if Combofiend was playing perfectly it’s an uphill battle for sure.


#996

It’s his only poke that is sufficiently disjointed from his hurtbox. Compare it to f+mk below:

It’s very hard to trade with when spaced properly since the hurtbox is protected by the hitbox-- many of Oni’s moves have a hurtbox that extends past the hitbox though which causes him to lose or trade often-- for the moves that don’t suffer from that issue, they are often still very closely connected to his hurtbox. F+LK is very disjointed, and its really the only move he has that is like this.

Additionally, the low hurtbox is more receded than most of his moves, which causes it to completely avoid many low pokes (which there are a lot of in the game). I’m not saying that you can’t try to poke with other moves, obviously you should or else you wouldn’t be able to convert… but F+LK is really his safest and best poke if that’s what you’re looking to do at the time.

True, the move isn’t special cancel-able, which sucks, but in terms of what is safe to throw out without fear of trading or losing, it is his best move. The startup is fast, the range is great, and it rarely loses or trades.

Regarding the damage, 50 adds up a lot when you’re throwing out a move that almost never loses to anything except unsafe reversals.


#997

Just because it’s safe doesn’t mean it’s his best poke or even a useful poke. Look at rufus for example. Some people can punish f+fp on hit but it’s still his best poke. Also saying the startup is fast and the range is great is not true relatively speaking. The start up is slow compared to similarly damaging moves that are special cancelable. And the range and damage is really weak compared to other pokes like f+mk and f+hp. Lastly if you’re racking up the damage with f+lk against the opponents you face because they’re constantly walking into f+lk then you need to find new opponents (preferably not on gfwl). It’s just not useful for anything especially for throwing out pokes.

p.s. that photo doesn’t take into account the fact that f+mk moves oni forward and extends the hitbox by twice what f+lk is.


#998

I still think we have different ideas of what pokes are o_O It’s safe, it has good range, it rarely trades, it has a hitbox that is disjointed from his hurtbox… I don’t know what more you could ask for except special canceling and more damage.

Obviously I’m not saying that I’m beating people with nothing but F+LK, I don’t know why you would even think that I was saying that… anyway, it is a great poke to throw out when you need to get through safe pressure from poke-centered characters like Chun, Bison, etc. F+HP is too slow to beat good pokes, it will often lose which means that even the 1 or 2 hits that you get will be outshined by your opponent’s faster poke with a better disjointed hitbox. Same for F+MK. F+LK on the other hand will almost never lose straight-up and it rarely trades.

Regarding F+MK moving him forward, it doesn’t matter when the hurtbox is so far out passed the hitbox that any randomly thrown out attack will beat it. The move is useful but when people realize that they can jab you out of it ON REACTION you will not be getting many F+MKs…

I don’t appreciate your GFWL live comment, I do very well at local tournaments but even I was a 100% online player that comment would be stupid and out of line because it’s not 2001 and though different than offline play, online play is relevant now, like it or not. That’s all I’m going to say on that subject because that was pretty stupid for you to even say…


#999

Just so you know it’s common knowledge that a poke only means one thing. It’s a verb. It’s not a noun. You can poke with f+fp or cr.mk but cr.mk can never be “not a poke”. It’s not semantics it’s a fact. I was trying to be nice before cause that’s so rare on the internet these days but you clearly don’t get it.
Now assuming every poke you ever throw out is met with a counter poke at the exact same time, your logic is sound. It’s range is only good considering it’s speed but it’s not something that can be used in footsies other than to throw out randomly expecting someone to be doing the same thing. If that’s your central strategy then you would be getting blown up by most average players. A good poke is not something that is completely situational. The best poke a character has should be useful. Watch a high level oni and count how many times they use f+lk to poke compared to other moves. It’s just not used very often hence it’s not his best poke.
Don’t take the gfwl comment personally. Watch your own replays and tell me gfwl isn’t the armpit of ssf4 ae online options. Also what tournaments have you entered and how did you place since you brought it up?


#1000

PC is the worst online community, no argument. However, saying it’s worthless is stupid. I also play on Xbox a lot. It’s honestly not that much better on Xbox compared to PS3 and PC-- it undoubtedly is better, but it’s not some kind of night and day difference or anything.

boring stuff about me that you wanted to know :stuck_out_tongue:

[details=Spoiler]I have played top 5 so far at every event I’ve gone to in Saint Louis, I got 2nd place with Oni last month at the SSF4AE competition losing to Mike Webb’s Rufus after 3-0’ing him in WF and then losing 3-2 and 3-0 in GFs. I’ve beaten Guilty twice and have never lost to her, but all of the games have been close when we’ve played. I’ve also beaten Mr. K, Peaceful, a few others. This is not me claiming that I am “hot shit”, but since you seemed to imply that I am nothing but an online noob I guess I will mention it. People like Rexxor still body me, but I contend with and/or beat many of the top players in my area.

Last month’s tournament didn’t have AE because everyone wanted to play SFxT, which I have been focusing on entirely as of late. I got 4th place with Guile x Cammy, for some reason they put Mike Webb and I against each other as the first match of the tournament… it went to last game, last round but he pulled it out. Later I lost to Mr. K’s Ryu x Raven-- I had no idea what Raven was doing, lol.

I have not traveled beyond Saint Louis for SF4 or SFxT, I just haven’t had time to prioritize the game enough to go beyond locals.

Nonetheless, I am a very experienced tournament player via, wait for it, Super Smash Brothers. Cue trolling. “lol Smash, lol noob”, yeah, okay, whatever.

I have traveled to many different states (Missouri, Illinois, Kentucky, Oklahoma, Iowa, Texas, etc.) and attended more “majors” than I can even count for Brawl from 2008 to 2011. I traveled to 2 MLG events and placed top 32 out of hundreds of entries. Generally at majors I was top 25 if not top 16. Locally I won around 5 good sized tournaments in 2008-2009, both singles and doubles.

I also hosted Smashfests (“hookups” as they are called in the SF community) every single week for those 3 years. I was the hub of my local scene and it became very populated with ~20 people at my house not being uncommon every week.

Discount it as you will, I know how FGC people look down on the series, I don’t care. I agree with it to a certain extent, but most of it is unfounded.

Brawl is very similar to SF4, much more than you probably realize, and contrary to popular belief it is a “real” game-- it’s just the community that tarnishes it. I have far more tournament experience than many people who play “real” fighting games and talk down on Smash. I do prefer Street Fighter but it was not where I started competitively.[/details]

Back to the subject at hand.

It absolutely is semantics. A move that “is a poke” is a move that you “use to poke”. Whether it is used as a verb or a noun is irrelevant.

I am not saying that F+LK is his only poke, I am saying it is his only good one because it is mostly without risk, which I consider to be a universal quality of a good poke. Bison st. MK / st. HK, Ryu cr. MK, etc. These are good pokes because they are low risk. Why are they low risk? Because they have a hitbox that is well disjointed from their hurtbox. Not all good pokes are special cancel-able and saying that a poke must be special cancel-able is stupid. Rufu’s cr. HP that you mentioned is a perfect example for this situation. Not only is it non-special cancel-able, it is also not actually all that great of a poke at all-- it is, however, one of Rufus’s best pokes. This is similar for Oni, where most of his moves are bad pokes due to the poor hurtbox/hitbox. F+LK is his one exception, hence why I refer to it as his “only good poke” / “only real poke”.

I don’t even understand how you’re interpreting what I’m saying as “the only move that Oni can use is F+LK”. It’s his only good poke, and that makes sense because he is a sub-par character. The reason that he is sub-par is because his options appear good on paper but lose to most other characters’ options-- why? Because of his poor hitbox/hurtbox data. This means you have to outplay your opponent to win, which is fine, but that’s why he’s not “good”.

F+LK is his only “good poke” because it does not follow the trend of all of his other moves, it actually beats and stuffs things clean quite often-- why? Because it has good hitbox/hurtbox data, unlike the majority of his moveset.

Last month at our “Fatal KO series” local when my Oni got 2nd place in AE, losing to Mike Webb’s Rufus, the single most obvious adjustment that he made was throwing out Rufus cr. LP at the ranges that Oni wants to F+MK. This stuffs or trades with F+MK, taking away all of Oni’s momentum. I tell people this all of the time, but Mike Webb is one of the few people I have met who applies it and truly understands how bad Oni really is when it comes to his hurtbox data.