In a cultural sense yes, SF4 was the SF2 of the 21st century and one could argue single handedly showed that fighting games can be relevant again in the modern era, reviving and revitalizing the genre. SF4 also swept up an entire new generation of FG players off their feet many of whom are still with us today. For these things, I am forever grateful for SF4 and will honor that contribution.
Gameplay-wise, it couldn’t be further from SF2.
SF5 is the first SF (and fighting) game I’ve played since CvS2 that comes remotely close to capturing the SF gameplay I grew up with.
I don’t th8n’ any of you ever played sf2. There’s almost no commitment to specials and there is practically no need for hitconfirms. The damage is closer to sf4 than 5 the anti airs are better, etc etc, the list goes on and on and on.
You can die in SF2 in 2-3 hits.
it takes allmost 20 to kill someone in IV.
V’s damage is closer to 2.
Hitconfirms in SF2 are not needed, because basicly everyone got some special they can throw at you even on block and still stay safe.
This has been part of the series since SF2 and is present in every god damn SF game.
No commitmeant specials are also a thing in every game in the series, nothing specials here again.
SFIV anti-airs are, meh to be precise.
A lot of characters have either bad or unreliabel anti-airs, there are a lot of characters with jump-ins that will outright beat anything that isn’t a DP.
Some characters best option against air attacks is just focus backdash.
I wouldn’t consider this good across the board, unless you’re one of these people who says the anti-airs are good cause you can FADC DPs, something only a handfull of characters got rewarded for anyways.
Also Yun is Top Tier and he hangs basicly 80% of the time in the air.
SFIV isn’t close to SF2 not in the gameplay departmeant, I might give you a point for them trying to recreate SF2.
The average BnB in SFIV does around 230 damage in a game were 1000 health is average.
You die in SF2 with 3 heavys, one combo leads usulay into stun, what leads to the next Combo which usualy kills.
IV was branded as a low damage game for a reason and exceptions like E.Ryu were, well exceptions.
The fact that most combos were started out with 3-4 jabs what scaled the damage a lot doesn’t help either.
Lots of characters had weak or terrible anti-airs in IV, just because some had good ones doesn’t mean the game was full of good ones.
IV also had a lot of stuff that made anti-airing dangerous, especialy if you did not have a DP, what most of the cast lacked.
Also most of your points say, that stuff from SF2 carried over into other SF games.
Most things you say aren’t even specific to SFIV, since they were in other games before already.
You basicly just said that IV has traits other SF games also have.
You can say SFIV was good as much as you want, I’m not buying it, the game was too damn ugly and honestly, the way damage went was pretty damn weird, I have made a solid effort to watch Hype SFIV videos on youtube and I just can’t get into it.
I will always like Zero series more, I will always like 3S more, I will always like SFV more and I will always like pretty much any KoF ever more.
Do you guys believe it is necessary for a neutral jump to both escape and full damage punish a command grab?
With the amount of nerfs that have been piling up on grapplers in every game, it has become more likely for a pathogen to escape a class IV biosafety lab than for a grappler to be good in SF. Today, we are on the point that whiffing is so fucking long it is possible to backdash then walk in and punish.
The way I see it, whiff recovery on command grabs could be shortened to 36f as it was in older games so even if the opponent neutral jumped and you whiffed you should be able to block or even antiair with some characters. What would be broken if you could st. lp the neutral jump? There’s always jump back when close so escape by jump is still an option and jump forward may get you an AA jab but that’s fair if you let the grappler corner you.
Command grabs are already strong in sf5 because most command grab characters have strong mobility tools and a plethora of ways to mess you up for trying to neutral jump a command grab.
What you are basically asking for is a little to no risk command grab… that doesn’t really make sense at all.
Me personally i don’t like the way command grabs work in this game. I’d rather they all have more range, but suffer from reduced damage, so like as an example:
H command grab does 150 damage, can be done after one blocked jab, has the worst followup oki, is the safest on wiff, has the fastest startup at 5 frames.
M command grab does 130 damage, can be done after 2 blocked jabs, has 6 frame startup.
L command grab does 100 damage, can be done after 3 blocked jabs, best oki, most unsafe on wiff, 7 frame startup.
Ex command grab can go one of 3 ways:
H command grab damage and range, L command grab oki opportunities, L command grab lack of safety.
Or L command grab damage range and oki, but with H command grab safety and startup.
Or 220 damage, L command grab range, H command grab followups, H command grab unsafety. This would be a “real” oldschool style command grab with huge range and damage but no real followup ability and very unsafe as well.
That’s a good way to balance out command grabs. The lowest damage version gives the best oki options has the most range but is the most unsafe and the slowest, the highest damage version gives the worst oki options but is the safest to try for.
This is good balance because it falls in line with sf5 rules:
Closer is stronger, but stronger tends to have the worst followups. Farther is weaker but weaker tends to have better followups.
Example from non sf5 game = T.hawk.
The way gief is designed is pretty dumb because there is little reason to ever use anything besides H and ex command grab because H command grab has the combination of both the best damage and best followups, you don’t have to choose which to use, and since it sets up for itself very well it can basically be vortexed back into itself… for high damage. Ex command grab is basically only there for range because it is an H command grab but with range. This makes L and M command grabs nearly useless most of the time.
Me personally I would try to balance command grab characters around these types of parameters, it’s probably not possible in sf5 because the characters are already balanced with regards to neutral, to a large extent and doing something radical like what I said would mean the characters neutral movesets having to be tweaked quite a bit.
But command grab characters as they are now seem pretty fine as far as strength goes. Fireballs were toned down and so were command grabs. Guile has his BS fireball game neutral but he’s pretty much the only one that can really abuse it. Gief has his command grab vortex, but he’s the only one with such an abuseable vortex.
Laura has a good mix of strike/throw mixups and trigger to make her command grabs do even more damage and stun. Alex has the worst overall command grab game, but he has string movement options and pokes, his problem is spotty AA and slow foot speed, a buff to either his walkspeed or his AA is all that he really needs.
Vega is super fast with a command grab. No need for any buffs to his command grab game.
Necalli is a hybrid that just happens to have a command grab.
Mika has some of the best command grab/strike mixups in the game and good post command grab followups in the corner, she’s tough to balance because of this fact. If her vortex were neutered in some way I could see that leaving room to make her neutral better, which might make her a more stable character, but that would basically just turn her into a female version of a buffed Alex.
Necalli and Laura are both considered in the higher tier of characters so command grab characters as a whole don’t see to be fairing badly, only 1 heavy zoner seems to be considered top tier as an example.
The best characters in the game are the ones that play sf5 the best:
Anti zoners with strong upclose stagger pressure options and big damage, slightly nerf their antizoning moves and their stagger pressure by making their anti fireball moves have 2-4 more frames of projectile invincibility startup, and their plus on block stagger moves knock back slightly more and you probably have a very balanced cast outside of guile and sim who might need some slight extra recovery frames on their ranged pokes.
Cmd grabs are helluva strong in SFV. The Crush Counter mechanic indirectly buff them because blocking becomes a reliable option when in range, which is half wrong. Because of that I’ve seen players jumping back more often trying to avoid cmd grabs and CC’s also,wasting time and range for a proper punish. Outside the amazing damage of 'em, we need to consider how easier for a grappler getting closer in this game. I mean, Gief vs Sim isn’t loopsided anymore, nuff said.
It’s probably not happening. It doesn’t even apply to old zekus CC normals so if they made all of old zekus cc normals regular, then huge chance they aren’t changing any other characters with respect to that.
A good stop gap would be applying a +5 or even +10 on wiff recovery to all mediums and heavies… this game could use it since there are few moves with range that are safe on block and can be canceled. The reason why punk wiff punishes so well isn’t just because he’s great, which he is, but it’s also because karins St.HP has huge range and cancels into specials.
There’s no reason to maintain Zeku’s CC heavies +5 on whiff if the rest of the cast don’t get the same treatment. Spamming CC’s on neutral just fucked up neutral more than SF4 dives, that’s really helps who ain’t good with footsies. Punk doesn’t whiff punish that well because of Karin st.HP, but because he’s good at creating space after blocked normals pushback. I saw him doing the same thing using Nash,not exactly a footsies monster like Karin is.
Punk wiff punishes well with a bunch of characters with a bunch of moves for the reason you said.
He wiff punishes fucking AMAZINGLY with karins St.HP… not the same thing.
Zekus CC buttons all have a total of 29-40 frames per move on wiff. Ken st.hk has 41 total frames, necalli st.hk has 36 total frames, both are -4 on block which is punishable if spaced incorrectly. Zeku has a bunch of -2 or better on block CC normals.
His extra recovery is a balance consideration to keep them in line with their perceived power from capcom, not a slight against him as a character.
Punish with st.HP isn’t hard at all, people in SFV it’s too used to do something when the opponent seems out of range, what Punk does regularly it’s calculated, that button is fast.
Zeku has -2 on st.HK old form and +2 on cr.HP , the others CC are more than -5 on block, there’s the additional recovery even on young form non Crush Counters heavies. Without the +5 recovery these normals have already pros and cons, aren’t OP imo.
You are correct in this… but that’s a capcom thing, you can take it up with them. I’m not saying that zeku necessarily deserves this treatment, I’m just telling you why he’s probably getting it. It’s a VERY deliberate decision to make those moves that minus on block while also giving them the +5 on wiff recovery, while also not touching old zekus wiff recovery frames… in other words capcom knows something that we don’t or are using a metric for balancing that we are not aware of… but it isn’t a random thing they did just to fuck over Young Zeku.