I like Crush Counters.
The problem aren’t even the Crush Counters.
It’s also not a problem that they’re in the neutral.
That can be fixed by giving them some more recovery on whiff.
The problem is how some CC give dumb reward for what they are.
Uriens st.hp that allows him to Combo for free anywhere on the screen might be the most prominent one that is problematic.
Unless it’s perfectly spaced or in the corner, CC should never give you a full Combo midscreen.
Something like hitting the opponent, then dashing AND walking a bit forward, before doing a coruching HEAVY for a full Combo is way to much.
Getting some lights in or maybe a special from full distance should be the maximum, unless it’s in the corner or perfectly spaced.
Most CC that grant full Combos don’t need spacing nor the corner, they just grant you a full combo midscreen on Top of V-Meter and a shitload of stun.
That said, I’m against nerfing CC like Bisons st.hk. That thing is a CC, +3 on block and leads to a combo basicly anywhere.
The thing here is Bison is slow as shit and that move doesn’t have much range. If the opponent is hit just by the tip, they can be out of range for the df+hp to follow up.
Most Season 0 Characters have better balanced CC’s than the Season 1 cast…
Cammys and Ryus st.hk’s (or Bisons st.hk in form of super slow characters) are probably the best ways to balance the CCs
They miss crouchers, don’t give you full combos unless good spaced (or in the corner), are slightly - and freaking hurt as AA.
They can literaly AA for 300-500 damage if they happen to CC a jump-in.
Not even giving more recovery on whiff can help against CC in neutral,because ost of them have a big forward momentum make them not that easy to avoid without playing on defense purposely. I.E. Necalli st.HK can also prevent the opponent jump. I like Cypher thoughts about CC btw, Cammy st.HK is a good tool but isn’t a neutral skipping dumb tool, so I’m ok with that.
Wow. We must be in sync with VA!!!
As a play, Crush Counters have really great expected value.
Granted not as good as pocket Aces, but definitely that EV is +
VA does suggest removal of CC in the video, but that could be too drastic.
Supposedly, time for a few brain farts:
Change up button priority: So that Heavy beats medium, medium beats light, lights beat heavy aka L < M < H < L full circle
But all they really need to do is nerf those that are too good.
Can’t wait for SFV: Arcade “Will they touch CC” Edition.
Now, Flame on!
You can’t and shouldn’t nerf CCs across the board because the value of CCs to each character varies. Bison’s design is built around his safe normals, nerfing his CC game isn’t the same as nerfing Alex’s or Balrog’s.
Nerfs should always be calculated and personalized for each character based on their intended battle design.
It goes without saying that Buffs > Nerfs. I would rather characters have more defensive options, and just more options in general - especially the mid and lower tiers than attacking something as systemic as VTs and CCs.
Isn’t the priority system the real problem here? That combined with CC heavies being safe or plus on block?
It is. Removing the CC on neutral will be easier than modify the priority system.
Bison definitely is one of those characters who benefits immensely from the actual CC mechanic. Atm he’s far from the commitment goal Capcom wants to achieve in SFV.
Me to. And personally I think they are pretty balanced ATM. The characters with the best CC tend to have major deficiencies in other areas and the characters with the weakest CC tend to have strengths in other areas so it seems to balance out decently. Not perfectly, just decently. Urien CC could probably do with not having a launch on hit and only a st.mp combo. Balrog hk CC could probably not be +3 on block and instead +0… etc etc but they are mostly fine. Urien doesn’t really have pressure outside of his v trigger and has hard to use AA and rog is a charge character so he loses a lot of upclose pressure outside of his st.hk
Doesn’t mean they aren’t a bit overpowered but they aren’t necessarily broken either. Rogs high low is the worst shit about facing him imo for example, and uriens best thing is his trigger. Neither of those things are their CC buttons.
The reason why I like CC is because it’s the only realistic way to punish people for sticking out massive amounts of terribly spaced lights and mediums that wiff and cover the ground against dashes and moves of that nature. CC buttons keep those types of strategies in check and I for one love that because outside of ranged CC there is no real way to do good damage in sf5 outside of telephone booth range.
Rather than destroying footsies, imo CC enables them and makes them actually rewarding for character that don’t necessarily have strong fireballs to compensate.
Sure. But my point was that if you wish to rebalance his risk/reward ratios you will also need to compensate, because in cases like his the safe normals and CC mechanic is pivotal to making him viable. He has the slowest walk speed in the game, and most of his specials are optimal or even remotely effective only with EX meter for a reason. Hell his VT is gimped from the get go if you don’t have ex meter. Things need to be seen and by extension balanced in full context and not in isolation.
We’re not talking about nerfing Urien’s S.HP here, a character who has a huge bag of tricks and then some.
CC now are used to fill the space between characters on ground, with less risk and high reward. People don’t care that much about throwing them in footsies since the worst thing they could get is a combo from lights. With CC you solved the problem of poorly spaced normals, but encouraging the braindead use of heavies. I don’t see the problem with fireballs in SFV,everybody and their mothers can go around them without the help of a CC. There’s no way CC helps footsies.
I don’t agree. And I also think it is more than likely your character choices that shape your particular decision making in this regard. CC are fine strategically. CC in this game gives you a combo that tends to do at most 300 damage meterless and 500 damage metered. Compare this to old school games where something simple like cr.mk xx fireball did about 1/4 life without a counterhit.
That’s when footsies actually mattered because they actually did damage. If you have CC on the ground in sf5 you can actually have a viable strategy for winning without jumping or dashing in. That’s one reason why they encourage footsies. Without them everyone has to rely on projectiles, jumps or wiff buffered mediums and lights to do damage…this of course won’t be enough so the game will essentially become jump based and wiff buttons based.
People that hate CC tend to be players that use stubby ranged limb characters that don’t have strong neutral CC themselves and have other moves to make up for this particular shortcoming, like divekicks or fireballs or really strong anti fireball moves.
But I mean, maybe that’s what people want in the end, a game where the ground isn’t dangerous and is just a war of attrition where people can autopilot safe footsies all day and you win or lose based on a thousand tiny needle pricks.
I guess there is something to be had from that style of gameplay, it wouldn’t be the first capcom title to play that way, but those games rarely last or stay popular. 3s as an example plays this way save for the fact that it is a very high damage game. You get your autopilot footsies… but with damage.
The problem with sf5 is if the CC get neutered the game becomes even lower damage than it already is, and me personally I don’t like that feel. Decisions should have strong consequences for making the wrong ones.
I don’t get it.
How much you win, should depend on how much your willing to bet.
If I play lowball, I don’t expect to win big pots.
For me to win big pots. I go ALL IN.
That’s the way SFV should be, and Crush Counter shouldn’t be an exception.
I feel you’re seeing it the other way around. How much you win should also depend on how much your opponent is willing to bet. CC’s capitalize on your opponent’s mistakes more so than rewarding you for how much you yourself are willing to bet.
The reward of using CC normals in neutral is bigger than the punishment for blocking them. Simple as that. Isn’t a punish because “You reach, I teach”, but you’ll really think using them in that situation comes always after a reasoned decision and not because the risk/reward ratio? Ok.
I’d prefer to make CC normals easy to punish on block, like sweeps. Increase recovery and/or decrease blockstun.
I’m good with it. Capcom wants commitment? Then big reward need to come with a big risk involved.
I say it should depend, i would rather these normals have a clear distinction in their purpose between these two:
A neutral CC normal should be easily punishable on block when badly spaced and have a large enough hurtbox during recovery(extend recovery time too) to make it dangerous to whiff also.
A frametrap CC normal should be safe but negative and have pretty short range.
Currently there are many CC normals which can be used both in neutral and upclose without much risk.
People want their ability to hold down back to play the entire game for them…
Makes zero sense. CC are easy to jump over mostly, easy to wiff punish and are the most prone moves to getting CC’d in the first place. That’s a lot of proactive ways to beat them already. You just want the game to play for you for some reason and hand you all the answers. Every move with decent priority in this game people lose their minds and say things like it needs to be punishable on block because they can’t think of proactive solutions to their situation.
It’s just “capcom solve this problem for me”
Remember folks, we’re not addressing whether Crush Counters have answers or not, or whether they can be countered.
We’re asking whether Capcom would rule it a FAIR system.
I have to applaud them in SFV, that they are willing to address issues on risk/reward after year 1. When they ruled that meterless invincible shoryuu’s were too strong, despite imposing a CC penalty.
They just love patching out stuff that is exploitable, to reduce ONE trick ponies.
But it did take them 7 years to finally address the risk/reward of shoryu xx FADC, when they released USF4.
Guess, we’ll have to wait till Season 3. But I commend their cutting edge approach to re-balancing.
Hopefully we shouldn’t have to wait for 7 years, for the release of Ultra SFV - for them to fix CC reward/risk ratio.
Or is it the input lag, that compounds the CC issue.
Arcade Edition: Justice for Everyone.
You aren’t jumping over 9-14f normals on reaction or some shit why is jumping a counter to CCs lmao
If anything having a jump be the answer you immediately thought of shows how much they remove from the ground game.
“Can’t fight the CC? FUCK NEUTRAL, JUMP.”