It seems like when it first appeared on import saturn it recieved nothing but props and respect and I really thought the series improved a lot in doa2. Overall the fighting system seems different with such a big focus on counters and I agree they can be a bit over powered but almost everyfighting game has some imbalance. And besides I can think of a lot of other fighting games that play way worst, I had just noticed a lot of negative feedback in the doa4 threads recently and wanted to know what’s the problem with the game is it just the counters?
Stun, mixup, stun, mixup, stun, mixup.
Guess, guess, guess, guess, guess.
Have fun with that.
Its a casual game…I like deep fighters…I dont think DOA can match up seriously to the likes of Tekken and SoulCal2, I feel like spending a lot of time with all of these games I can say this. DOA isnt as deep nearly and has a noobish feel to it, like anyone can button mash their way to victory…and then counter this counter that…maybe DOA4 will be taken as more serious by deepening the fighting engine…it cant hold a candle to SC2 or T5 or some 2d games as far as depth goes, same can be said about DBZ3, remember I can say this because I truthfull PLAY ALL OF THESE GAMES…DBZ3 is labeled like DOA as a button masher and I can totally understand that…once a game gets labeled as that no one wants to touch it…regardless of how much depth past the initial stage the game may have…
Counter System is stupid.
All fighting games are like this WTF.
They are when you reduce them down to the most basic form, which is what DOA is.
Well hell man to be honest that’s stupid why would you not enjoy
a fighting game because some people you might not even know on the interent “labeled” it as a button smasher. That does not make any sense at all. If everybody all of a sudden labeled 3s a button smasher would you join them to? And why do you consider it to not be as deep? :tdown:
Why? Care to elaborate?
Doa is more indepth than that and if you say otherwise you havent played the series much if at all
I guarantee this’ll make it to 50 posts before someone makes a decent point explaining why DOA is bad. Don’t count on me, I’m outta here.
I myself know of people who believe the word once its spread…not me personally…I have to play it myself…and I still do like DOA…but I feel Tekken and Sc2 etc are the tourney games…DOA is FUN THOUGH MAKE NO MISTAKE IMO…but in a more casual way IMO…it just needs some more depth…once it does that itll finally hit gold…
Countering has been simplified to one button and three directions.
Countering has way too high of damage for itself. Counter is almost as damaging, if not more damaging than doing a combo. Basically, what’s the point of creating an elaborate offense if you can simply counter to damage the opponent just as much.
Someone told me this about DOA, though, which I agree with. In 3D games, there is a concept of risk and reward. What I mean by this is that the more risk you take, the more reward there is in taking that risk. In Namco games, the risk has very little reward. For instance, Soul Caliber 2 has the parry system which is pretty high risk if you fuck up, but if you do happen to parry, there is a small window to take advantage of, meaning there is a very small reward.
Let’s say you parry someone. What are you options?
- Slash: you can get parried back. Best option is to use the quickest framed move and guarantee a minor damaging hit. All that risk for a jab, basically.
- Throw: Throws can be broken.
Tekken is almost in the same category as SC2, but juggles in Tekken are very rewarding. So are guard breaks, counters, etc.
Essentially, in SC2 countering there is 100% risk and 0% reward.
With DOA, its more 100% risk, 100% reward. You take the high risk of countering, you get the high reward of damage.
Here is the fighting engine in DOA:
- You get thrown in counter stance, throw damage is higher.
- You get hit in throw stance, the hit damage is higher.
- You get counter, you get high ass damage.
DOA ends up being one big ass guessing game and you have a 33% chance of attaining high risk/high reward, and a 66% chance of getting high risk/high consequence. What I found to suck ass a lot in DOA is that even if you were to counter attack, you still run the risk of being countered yourself in the midst of a combo. Seriously, what kind of shit is that?
Oh yeah, and Cartwheel man > DOA
they even said it on x-play then its a great looking game but you only need skills of an 5 yr old,the people on x-play said that and you can tell they suck in bout everything as well so you do the math
IN all honesty, i dont see why people should answer stupid questions.
OK here is DOA’s main problem to me.
A lot of people compare the game to VF, since the mechanics are pretty much the same, so I’ll use that as comparison. VF is considered great, so why isn’t DOA?
While DOA’s offense is almost identical to VF’s, its defense is completely different, and defense is what makes VF, VF. But don’t you guess in VF, too? What’s the difference? The only difference is that DOA is much less work, right? Wrong. The reason it’s more work in VF is because you have more options in VF. The more options you use, the more work you’re going to have to do, that’s the way it is. DOA’s philosophy is letting you do all the guessing with minimal work (direction+button).
The problem is you can only use 1 option at a time. This is what kills the game, makes it too simple and based on only big guesses.
On defense (while stunned), you can just reverse (counter) low, mid, high, or do nothing. You can only use 1 of these options, so if you reverse at all, and the opponent throws, you’ll lose 40-50% guaranteed from a hi-counter throw. If you do nothing or reverse the wrong level, you’re still in the same fucking stun and in the same position you were a second ago but with less life. And of course if they do a slow launcher, it’ll also beat any level reversal. If you think they will throw, you have to sit there and do nothing. You might get a free hit or something when they whiff their throw, but if they do any attack, guess what? You’re still in the fucking stun. And in DOAU, there are 4 reversal levels (1 for mid kicks and 1 for mid punches), so its even more in favor of the attacker.
Even worse, reversals do a lot of damage. Now you might think, wait, if the game is so in favor of the attacker, wouldn’t it be fair to let the defender do a lot of damage if they guess right? It makes sense, but in the end makes a very dumb game. It just leads to randomness and an ‘all or nothing’ style of play, based on big guesses. The odds are weighted agaisnt the defender, but, if they do guess right, they can take 35~40% of the attacker’s lifebar. It’s just not a good way to design a competitive game, because it’s all absolutes. You either win big or lose big, there are no in-betweens. Guess right? Opponent is fucked. Guess wrong? You are fucked.
Compare this to VF, where the defender has many more options. Let’s say im at -6 (large disadvantage, but nothing guaranteed against me). Let’s say I want to evade. Now if this was DOA, it would end there. I would have to commit to my evade and do nothing else.
But I still have sub-options. I can try and escape 2 or 3 throws, in case my opponent tries to throw. I can’t escape all the throws, because each character has 4 or 5 different throws. Throw is the natural counter to evade in VF, so being able to get out of the opponent’s throw options when evading would be stupid, no? Now let’s say I tried to escape the opponent’s 2 best throws. So if they did one of the throws I escaped, I’ll escape and be given some frame advantage (usually +6). Is the opponent fucked because I guessed right? Nope. Let’s say they did a lesser throw that I didn’t escape. I’ll take ~25% damage. Am I fucked? Nope.
Now let’s say the opponent is delaying his attack (usually a launcher) to beat my evade. This is usually going to do like 30~40%, so it’s a bigger reward for him. To beat that, I can do evade -> crouchdash cancel, and guard the delayed launcher. Note that I’m still evading, but I’m combining it with a sub-option. Or I can do backdash -> evade. That’s basically a delayed evade. It’s early enough to avoid immediate attacks, late enough to evade dlayed attacks also. Both evade -> crouchdash and backdash -> evade will lose to a throw (in a big disadvantage situation). It’s all about sub-options.
Now let’s say I want to fuck him up bigtime for throwing. I can do a laucher straight-up at -6 (since attacks beat throws in VF 100%). He can just decide to straight-up launch me if he thinks I’m going to do this. Stright up basic shit. That’s the big-risk, big reward option in VF, which is what every option in DOA is.
This is a pretty basic way of explaining it, but that’s what I feel is the problem with DOA. Great as a casual game for sure. It has solid mechanics, and fun to fuck around with, but hard to be taken seriously.
ummm I don’t think Xplay is the best place to get info regarding weither a fighting game is good or not.
Personally I thought doa3 was pretty good. It had the lowest counter hold dmg (like max is 60) and the japanese version had some sweet mind games and frame traps in it. All the other ones suck though.
btw, the cartwheel guy (hayate) isn’t able to do that in USA doa3. Only in JAP ver. they also fixed it for the PAL release. He’s still pretty top tier.
In all honesty I dont understand why you would post since this is a dissucusion and you dont have anything to add?
Not trying to be a doa troll or anything but I just wanted to point out some things:
You can slow escape from alot of stuns. This rules out slow launchers and let’s ya punish any delayed attacks.
As I said doa3 has hold damage only going up too like 60 dmg. (unless you do one of those advanced holds… which are just sucker bets as far as I’m concerned.) I only play doa3 since doa2/2U’s system is really ghey. But even then the hold damage at max only goes up to 33%. I don’t think there is a basic command throw (non-combo or wall) that does 50%… I’m pretty sure there isn’t.
I don’t know about random-ness. I’m pretty good at doa3 and usually you can punish random holds or throws pretty easy.
wheres justownin in this bitch
You and Platinum Pinnoy bring up a few good points I already stated that I think the counters are to damage heavy in my original post however why should all fighting games be geared
toward offensive with such a heavy emphasis on reversals this is pretty much the only fighting game which you can go in knowing you dont have to approach the match knowing you have to beat an oppenent down and it’s a nice change of pace from the norm, if it played like virtua(clone) you would still bash it, that’s why I stated in a old post if any new company ever came out with a new great fighting game it probably would not be accepted, and x-play come they dont know anything about fighting game and platinum 3d figting games are based on skill and knowledge of the game not on luck.