Inkblot going on vvv's Loser Bracket podcast in 15 minutes

The topic is, of course, the recent spat over eSports. Check it out!

I support your position.

Bottom line is that the FGC has always been very well self-sustaining and self-efficient.

We don’t need the help of anyone whose primary motivation is the growth of their own profits rather than the growth of the scene.

Did anyone listen to the rest of that show? You’d have to be fucking high to put fighting games in the hand of … whatever that was. Thousands of gamers working for over a decade to build a community in order to hand it over on some Willy Wonka shit is not a good look.

Screw corporate leagues…

Take this from a DOA player who’s lived through the drama of CGS, you don’t want that nonsense tainting your community. It doesn’t matter how much room you give each other to move. In the end, they are only interested in one thing, and their goals are not your goals.

If I were you, I would consider starting your own league if you want people to get payed. A person who entirely lacks the values a fighting game community has could never do it justice.

Can someone explain to me what exactly MLG is looking for from Capcom? It seems that they are pissed off Capcom isn’t willing to give them a dime for having their game in the league…

It seems like that’s it. The recording is here:

If you skip to part 2, go to around 50 minutes in and listen from there, they spend the next 10 minutes talking about how they (MLG) won’t run games unless the developers or publishers help ‘support’ the tournaments.

Tournaments are enormous promotion for a game and MLG (as a corporate entity) would be going out of their way to promote the game too, it’s not all that ridiculous of a proposition from a business standpoint.

Realistically you can often offset that value in cross-promotion. Advertising MLG on Capcom-Unity, the official game site, even in game (it’s happened before), etc. If Capcom feels like they’re getting enough for their money from independent tournaments, Evo, Street Fighter Nationals, etc. it’s their position to not tie themselves up with MLG. MLG’s argument would probably be that they’re trying to expose competitive gaming in general to a more mainstream audience so if gaming companies invest in it there’s some supposed long term payoff. I imagine MLG SC2 has allowed that game to pick up some console FPS players it wouldn’t have and MLG SFIV (or whatever) would definitely attract some people from their current games but it’s hard to say it would be enough.

Not that long ago I would have said there was some upside in terms of how MLG runs their events and coverage but fighting games have made pretty amazing advances in organization and streaming on their own.

Sorry to pile up on your post but I couldn’t agree more. If the primary focus is cash, then everything bends to that. Have the primary focus always be the game, the competition. Add money in as an incentive, a positive. Don’t regulate the scene with the specific intent to make it a profit driven enterprise. Don’t just think about yourself (no, I don’t mean any one person). Yes, you have a right to some money off your skill and you can still get it. Don’t sacrifice the very foundation of the scene to do it. Understand what it means to have a grassroots scene. We are at a good degree of integration with profit. People still get paid for ability.

This is the classic liberalism vs. conservatism argument. Think beyond the argument into what you value. Any change can be justified if you look at the individual or the group. In this case, I believe when you change the focus towards a particular thing, the scene reflects it. The quality of play might increase overall, but it is not as important as people competing without restriction.

Are tournaments really an enormous promotion for a game? People seem to vastly overestimate the importance of the 6 digits of hardcore players, at an age where any game that doesn’t hit 7 digits is considered a flop… And do people seriously think that putting fighting games on the MLG will get those SC fans buying those games? After the reaction SF4 got from the SC fans in Dreamhack?

It isn’t so much people watching the tournaments as people knowing the game is played in tournaments, in a lot of cases. It’s kind of a branding exercise in legitimizing the game. Obviously if you’re going for CoD numbers there is actually not a single fuck given but for a game like Street Fighter it’s a fairly big deal. Hell they went out of their way to release SFIV in arcades first to make sure people took it seriously, and they would have had a hard time selling something like AE if it wasn’t a competitive game. Plus the tournament environment shows the potential of what can be done in a game compared to ugly matches with randoms and AI.

For what it’s worth back in the day the Halo 3 MLG playlist had like 6-7,000 people playing it during peak hours.

Part of the problem here though is that with most games MLG picks up there isn’t a well known or stable American tournament scene already.


fuck MLG

Tom Cannon is doing his best Jeff Goldblum impression…

**Warning: This post will be both poorly edited and contain a lot of CAPS **

I think this whole thing got me extra hype because it happened right around NEC time, and I just saw a bunch of people busting their asses, and losing their voices and sanity all weekend for this community. As I listened to this interview more and more things kept sticking out and irking me and the best way I could think of to keep track of all of it was just to start over and mention it as it happens.

Actually the first section of the interview isn’t so much issues that bug me it is just from a perspective of not understanding the fundamentals of the fighting game community.

31:25 - Why has CAPCOM been supporting the figting game community instead of the leagues?
Okay this was so shocking to me that I couldn’t even believe it was a question, but I guess it goes to the heart of the difference in perspective on this issue. The answer is because we would do it anyway. The fighting game tournament scene began without help from Capcom and would keep on going without support from Capcom. We are literally promoting their games whether they like it or not. The leagues on the other hand are asking Capcom to get on board with their plan aka put money and support in to get in. I can’t put this any more clearly The fighting game community isn’t asking or demanding anything of Capcom to run these tournaments and leagues are. We’re going to run fighting game tournaments because we want to run fighting game tournaments and they’re going to run fighting game tournaments if someone gives them enough money to run fighting game tournaments.

This is the point where the interview starts getting annoying because that subject is being continuously danced around without being put down.

** 33:45** - Can the fighting game community get over the fact that Street Fighter may never be a League game?
ARE YOU %@#&ING KIDDING ME? This scene has been running independent of publisher support for years and years and just hanging out and talking to people I have NEVER heard anyone noticeably upset that fighting games weren’t picked up by a pro league. WE DON’T CARE. We don’t care if leagues pitch in, we don’t care if capcom pitches in, WE DON’T CARE. We are going to do this regardless of support. And the second issue with this question is how amazingly arrogant the question itself is and how at the same time the person asking it has no clue how dickish the question he just asked was. Hint for the leagues: the first step for having a good relationship with the fighting game community is never asking this question again.

35:00 - Tekken Players aren’t Street Fighter players, This comes up again later, and there seems to be a belief that fighting game players are all playing every fighting and if a fighting game gets picked up then why on earth wouldn’t all fighting game players support it? We aren’t all the same, this is one of the things that would most likely cause issues in the case of a league coming to the fighting game community. Different games have different styles and they they appeal to different people. Picking up SF4 isn’t going to get you Tekken players, its not going to get you Blazblue players, Its not going to get you Mortal Kombat players, its not going to get you Soul Calibur players. They’re not being uncooperative, these games existed before leagues got involved and long time players of those games had all the time in the world to decide if they wanted to play SF4 or not and if they haven’t by now they probably won’t.

37:23 - This question takes two minutes to finish but this “Circle” is all types of broken and It all revolves around the same issue of not understanding what “we don’t need leagues” means. How does the fact that this scene has been around for over a decade with minimal league interaction and is not dying, but growing prove anything but the fact that we don’t need leagues. How is that not apparent to anyone over the age of 10? The topic keeps being brought up in the interview with this expectation that this time the answer will be “yes we need leagues”. Follow me on this logic: I was in my 20s the first time I had calamari, I am completely sure I don’t need Calamari in order to live, because I lived for over 20 years without having it. Why is this so logically hard for everyone else in this interview to understand we are 100% sure we don’t need leagues because we’re growing right now, RIGHT NOW, without them.

40:45 - If you have people Golf clapping at a fighting game event YOU HAVE FAILED. Honestly, the easiest way to solve this whole thing would have been to invite everyone to SCR or any major fighting game event. The complete lack of understanding of the feel of the fighting game scene at an event is almost causing a language barrier in this interview.

43:10 - THIS IS NOT A CONTRADICTION AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHY THE QUESTION WAS ASKED AS IF IT WAS. Asking someone to talk to you and saying you need them are in no way mutually exclusive, AT ALL, not even a little bit. This is another MAJOR screw up in this interview, stating that the road to true engagement with the league starts with the fighting game community saying that we need the leagues, and why is it a screw up? BECAUSE WE DON’T NEED THEM, if you still don’t understand why, go up two paragraphs and start over . At this point it begins to sound like the road to true engagement starts with kissing the league’s ass or ring or whatever the hell the league tells you to kiss.

48:10 Walmart Analogy - okay here the thing, walmart didn’t just ruin “that mom and pop feel” it turned small towns into ghost towns, it put families out of business, it replaced high paying jobs with lower paying jobs and once mom and pop were gone it was walmart or nothing . “But americans voted and they decided they would rather have cheaper groceries than mom and pop” Well the fighting game community voted and we like mom and pop. We piled into a car and travelled 5 hours to one of moms tournaments and crashed on her couch for the weekend. We hung of with pop and grabbed some food and possibly got drunk with him after the tournament was over. Mom and pops are good people who looked out long before things got profitable, and you…I DON’T KNOW YOU MAN! Please take your cheap groceries and golf claps over to the next town if you want to shut down mom and pop.

Also not to knock Inkblot, but I’m not completely sure that everyone there understands that hes not the president of the fighting game community. Yes, he has alot of influence but he doesn’t sit in a throne making decrees to be carried out by the everyone else in the community.

As a side note I got the link from this thread and shared it with one of my best friends on facebook, he is the person I trained against from SFII WW until the beginning of MVC2, about 11 years ago when I got on SRK. He is now a big Starcraft 2 fan and we’ve had this conversation a few times on the differences between the two communities, and we have alot of differening opinions and he explains things that Starcraft does and I try to explain to him why some of his ideas just wouldn’t work in the fighting game community because of core differences between the two. Conversations on this subject are going to have a lot of disagreement and, its just the nature of the conversation, but to make progress in this discussion you have to be able to be able to disagree with someone without being a dick to them.

I know right? The supreme arrogance of this statement is completely, utterly, and totally mind boggling. Considering it’s in the best interests of the fighting game community for us to be independent of “eSports” entirely, yeah, I think I can get over it. I actually lol’ed when Inkblot said, “you mean emotionally?”

The other questions demonstrated a total ignorance of the community in general. Seriously, if you guys have to ask those sort of questions to begin with, you shouldn’t be trying to get your fingers in the fighting game community.

James Chen’s interview on Original Gamer if anyone wants to listen.

I would honestly stop watching streams of fighting games if it became part of MLG

I’m curious about how much sponsored MLG players are paid by their sponsors. Every time someone brings up fighting games and MLG they have this song and dance about “making a living playing games.” I looked up MLG payouts and for normal events they pay $5,000 for first place. Providence was $50k/$25k/$15k for top 3. HuK placed top-8 at four events (more than any other player unless I missed someone) and his winnings total $13,500. So from tournament winnings alone, two guys can make minimum wage, one guy made a normal wage, and a third guy made decent money, out of every single person that played in MLG this year.

That might be more money than people make by winning fighting games (is it?), but it’s not like having fighting games in MLG is suddenly going to make playing Street Fighter a legitimate career except for maybe a couple people.

MLG is gay

The fighting game community: If you mess with us, we will shoot a Cannon at you. :cool: