Innovating your game

Take A-Groove for example. Instead of copying everyone elses combos and set-ups, take the time in creating your own. Not only is it origional but it makes them uncommon to other tactics. It’s what I’m doing in SFA3. I’ve read the combo faq, but I’m using that knowledge to come up with custom combos my self. Sure they might not be the best, but the fact that I’ve developed them my self makes it easier to execute and understand them, I find if you copy them off paper you don’t really understand it aswell as if you develop it first hand.

IDK, imo you’ve just got to do it your self, that’s the only way they’ll be truely unique to you. After a while you’ll sharp realise the flaws of your tactic and you’ll be encouraged to come up with your own counter. It all boils down to not copying everyone else really imo.

Q: “How to innovate your game?”

A: Don’t do the shit you see everybody else do… fair enough?

Using a different character isn’t innovative, its just different. It only becomes innovative if you use that character in a new way. New combos can be innovative, but only the setups matter. After that its just get as much damage out of the hit that you can. Using tripguard to setup a CC is innovative, it doesn’t really matter wether you go into a ground CC or knockdown and juggle.

This is assuming you want to get better, because technically doing anything that hasn’t been done before is innovative.

play runaway magneto and rushdown cable

Already done. Runaway to build meter and use the garbage chip you get from a fullscreen tempest has got to be one of the funniest things ever.

I would read up on some characters, and try out some new stuff on my own, like VC in SFA3. Generally, it all depends on my playstyle.

There is a lot you can do with any character. If you pick a god tier character like V-Gouki, who just doesn’t have ANY weakness, you can start playing around with the sheer variability. Variability = power = innovation. Although the canned VCs and combos are usually well known for their reliability, there’s no reason you shouldn’t muck around trying to find new combos and new tactics. It just makes you more versatile as a player. Look at guys like BAS, who has like a million tricks up his sleeve.

Being a CVS player hose trying to improve, I’ve spent quite a bit of time playing around with characters and grooves. I built a counter team once, and have ended up getting pretty good with K-groove Eagle (an odd combination as most people play A-groove Eagle). After seeing some CC’s with him I’m trying it out for myself, and trying to find some other guys to throw in. I look at CVS and I don’t want to be another A-PyschoBison/Sakura/Blanka guy. I think that there is a lot of potential that people just aren’t taking the time to unlock. Who knows, maybe you’ll see me at an EVO in the future with A-Ryo/Iori/Eagle.

Speaking of BAS, he only recently found a new, even more damaging A-Groove Dictator CC. Just goes to show that you should never resign yourself to believing everything’s been found and there’s no need to try to innovate.

Really? o.o

When coming up with combos I go for the most damage in as few hits as possible route. Less chances to mess up and getting the job done.

http://www.xanga.com/D44bas?nextdate=5%2F18%2F2006+0%3A45%3A47.187&direction=n

:smiley:

A3 V-ISM Akuma/BAS is a good example. BAS found a lot of stuff himself, and is one of the reasons the character is so beastly. Not just in terms of technique, but actual combos, which can sometimes give you more options (ie. the VC1 corner reset, sweep -> OTG, which extends the range he has and thus his ability to counter).

The entire reason people think of V-Sagat in A3 as top tier and not second/third-tier, is because some guy sat in Training Mode for God-knows-how-long, and found a reset/infinite/infinite setup.

Viscant used to play strange characters, but as I understand it, he was basically just doing so to find something which could be abused, so he could use it in tournaments (your opponent may have a hard time finding a counter, especially in the space of one or two matches). I actually think that’s a very good approach.

Wins thread!!!:lovin:

I don’t know about that… generally, thread-winning posts tend to add relevant material to the discussion.

but what i said is the damn truth…

AKA…

if somebody can TELL YOU WHAT TO DO TO INNOVATE YOUR GAME, they’ve already thought of it, therefore, it’s not really innovative, is it?

From my perspective (as though I would post from anyone else’s), the most important thing you can do is keep your eyes WIDE OPEN for when weird stuff happens in the game. Any time you watch match videos, play against your friends, or even see the CPU do something, be super-aware of weird things that happen. This is the meat of how things like unblockables and unfly get discovered, you just end up playing 300 of the same old match against your friends, and one night some unexpected nonsense happens. Then the fun part comes, when you get to investigate it and try to reproduce the “bug”. But if you’re not paying attention, stuff like this happens all the time and you just miss it. It’s the tiny things, like getting an extra hit in a juggle on a combo you actually screwed up on, or doing silly crap that shouldn’t work just as a joke and then having it actually work.

For specific character finds, sometimes it’s really just as simple as approaching the same old crap from a different angle. One of the hardest and most unpredictable opponents I’ve ever fought in 3s was this Ken player from this art school across the street from my old office. A freakin’ Ken player. But he had solid skills, and he had never seen another Ken play. Not in videos, not around town. He just taught himself to play and learned from playing against other decent people. It was weird, if you play 3s long enough you can own the bottom 80% of Ken players pretty easily, because they all do the same crap. But he never did the usual junk, it was all brand new. Freaked me the hell out.

That’s the general approach I go for. Either pick a character and learn every single thing you can about them, or just think about the game engine and ponder ways of breaking it. Both things go together, it kind of just flows back and forth. I spent like 3 months just doing weird stuff with jump-cancelling and jump-super-cancelling once, it never gets old.

N

What you said was A. obvious, B. glib, and C. completely without substance. It was good for a little laugh, but that’s about it. Some people go to SRK to learn things and offer their own insight, and some people go to SRK to be the class clown. Nothing wrong with either one, but how often does the class clown offer up any truly useful nuggets of wisdom?

That’s not what I was asking. There are some people–real tough competitors, and I don’t think I have to name examples–who consistently devise fresh tactics and unleash them during high level play. It is fairly obvious that they don’t just sit there and wait for these tactics to sneak up on them and bite them on the ass. They go looking for them.

I started this thread in hopes of getting a few responses from people who can offer insight into how to search for stuff like this and what to look for. I’ve seen many threads on the general topic of improving at the game, and threads about the new tactics that are discovered, but I haven’t seen any that specifically cover strategies on hunting for new and useful ideas. They are there and they do exist, but (and I know I’m not imagining this) I don’t think the vast majority of us are privy to them.

I guess I’ll answer here.

The best way to figure out new stuff is to figure out WHY stuff works in the first place. Modern games, especially Marvel aren’t really based around SF skill, more based around gimmicks. So if you want to know why the game works, start by looking at the most successful gimmick.

What do Storm, Magneto, Iron Man, Doom have in common. All have 8 way airdash. This makes them harder to hit and harder to block. OK, well, now we have something. 8 way dash is good. So let’s look for another character who has 8 way dash. Dhalsim. OK. So now we at least have a starting point for something new. We can take little pieces of each of those characters and add it to Dhalsim. From Storm we can take the “reverse rushdown” of SJ fierce, dash d/b fierce to build meters. Sub out rh for fierce and it’s actually slightly better. (To tell the truth, Dhalsim’s use of that predates Storm’s. After I saw how well it was working with Sim, I started doing it with Storm and other people followed suit). We can take Iron Man’s slow projectiles in the air and his air dive tricks and adapt those to Dhalsim also. TK jab yoga fires take FOREVER to go away and take up square dashing space. Also drills can be subbed in for knee dives, except they’re slightly better! You can chain off of those, whereas Iron Man got that taken away from him. Also we can take Magneto’s square dashing except change the angles. Dhalsim’s high air jab goes almost straight down and delays his movement a bit. Combine that with Storm/Mag/Cyclops assists and we got something good here, kind of like how Magneto does with Psylocke. And (probably most importantly) we can take Storm’s runaway and improve upon that. Dhalsim’s air teleport resets his airdashes so he can stay up at the top of the screen INDEFINITELY and call assists. Neat. And we haven’t even gotten into triangle dashing yet.

So you can see in this way, we’ve “innovated” by really doing nothing. Dhalsim is a significantly different character from Magneto or Storm or Iron Man, but because we know that stuff they have works, we can borrow all of these already proven winning ideas and make something new. For the record, people credit me with “innovating” in this way a lot. This is really not as hard as it seems, you just have to know what you’re looking for. We know that 8 way dash is, without exception, good. We know that square dashing is good. We know that running away is good. So even though Dhalsim does almost no damage, has mostly useless assists and doesn’t have great combos, he can be played a little in competitive play.

–Jay Snyder
Viscant@aol.com

Damn, I’m sorry I missed this thread. TS, Thongboy, and Viscant had some brilliant tidbits posted here. I hope anyone who read their posts realizes that what they were saying can be applied to any game or character, really.

And actually, anyone who ever questioned weather they should play a top tier character or a mid/low tier character should take a good look at this thread.

If you take 3rd Strike for example, you can look at just about any character and see that pretty much all of them have at least something. The trick is to examine that “one thing” and then start looking for ways to use that “one thing” in practical setups, then start looking for ways to lead into those setups. Which is where practice and experience and execution come in to play.

A really obvious example would be an overhead with only a few frames of recovery. Clearly this is a very useful tool, but how do you use it?

You must find situations where you know you have a high chance or guaranteed chance of landing it, the most obvious being after a knock down. So then you start looking for easy/practical/reliable ways to get a knockdown that allows you enough time to plant the overhead so that if it lands, you get damage.

Point in fact: Dudley. Dudley has a wonderful overhead and can get huge damage off of it.

And then that can be applied to other characters. Like Viscant said, take a look at what is already known as good. We know for a fact that Dudley’s overhead is good because it’s fast and it’s an overhead and it’s confirmable into his SA’s. Now apply that to another character like Ibuki. Ibuki’s toward+MK overhead move is very difficult to punish, and is actually not punishable by a lot of the cast members (after being blocked/parried), and it has the added benefit of being able to combo into other moves after it hits and also is confirmable into her SA.3. Therefor, logically, this is abusable or a “one thing”. And like Dudley, the only question then is how and when to use it. Of course Dudley’s is better is because it’s much faster and his SA’s are much better, etc.

However, some things aren’t really as obvious as others. In a game like Guilty Gear, you can take a look at a mid/low tier character like Chipp in order to find that “one thing” and say “well, he had good cross-up potential, but how do you guarantee a crossup?”. Well, the answer here is that Chipp could combo you for moderate damage any time he gets an opening, but at the sacrifice of a knockdown. OR he can knock you down early in the combo, sacrificing guaranteed damage for a good cross-up setup. Which means he sacrifices guaranteed moderate damage for potentially high damage.

The point of bringing that up is that it’s not exactly intuitive to go for lesser damage. But, in this case Chipp’s “one thing” requires him to go for lesser damage in order to get a good setup, and in the end he’s rewarded because that “one thing” happens to be really good (low risk, medium chance of success, large reward). And actually, the same could probably be applied to Anji as well.

And then the example of Chipp could also be applied to Ibuki. Ibuki can jump up and hit you for large stun and damage after launching you with close HK, which would seem like the best option due to the large stun and damage. However, another option is to reset you and then hit you as you land, forcing you to guess which direction you’re going to attack from, also forcing you to guess weather you’re going to throw or attack. This is just like Chipp because she is sacrificing guaranteed damage for potentially even higher damage.

That also applies to Ibuki’s overhead because Ibuki’s overhead happens to have a pretty slow startup. So, you have to look for situations where you know you can land it without it getting interrupted. Therefor, it’s sometimes a good idea to sacrifice what you know will do good damage in stun for something not-so-good, in order to create an opening in which to use the overhead.

[edit] What it basically all comes down to is examining the character to find that “one thing”, then finding ways to set up opportunities to use that “one thing”, then practicing and perfecting the setups and executions.