Input on Makoto's abilities

Any input on this thread would be appreciated:

Basically I’m looking to create a spread sheet that allows players to quickly compare different characters in several different areas, as it is now those areas are up for discussion but I have the following.

Health - Stamina and stun added together.
Reversal/ AAs/ Etc. - Mainly being how well a character deals with offensive pressure.
Zoning - Controlling the opponents positioning from mid to far.
Rush - closing the gap to deal damage.
Mix up - Varied options to deal damage. All distances are considered.
Damage potential - Not just having high damage combos but also how numerous the opportunities to use them.

My ratings for Mak:

Health - 4
Rev/AA - 1
Zoning - 1
Rush - 4
Mix up - 4
Damage pot - 5

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/2548/makp.jpg

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I’ll handle this. give me a few minutes.

Thanks, TMM. I think the Makoto forum is my favorite, lots of brilliant members contributing.

Any input you have on the other characters would be greatly appreciated as well. My numbers are all skewed by my scrub ass.

Also, what do you think of the categories I’ve chosen? There are more in depth descriptions on the main thread. I’m thinking an Ease of use/ depth of tactics rating might really be of use for the beginning player.

Health - 4

This is a numerical value and cannot be changed. But yeah in AE anyone with 1050 stun is a beast. with 1000 health she is fucking amazing.

Rev/AA - 1
Um… no lol. A few things:

You ever heard of fukiage? No? Ever mistimed a jump and lost 1/2 your health because of it. IMO Fukiage, while not being a traditional SRK is the best reversal in the game. It leads to maximum damage for minimal meter, and provides invaluable reset opportunities. It alone can deter any jumping at all and destroys most crossup attempts.

Second, EX Karakusa DESTROYS safe jumps. Seriously. Its unfair to jump and get grabbed.

Third, she has some great normals for anti air. the hitbox for c.HK is massive and is akin to chun li’s s.HK. C.MK lowers her hurt box to the point of nonexistence. It loses to very few attacks.

On the other hand, she has no way out of straight pressure (from the ground) and dive kick pressure. other than Focus back dashing or tech throwing she just has to sit there and block. It can get frustrating if the Makoto player is not patient. This is her one glaring flaw IMO. But its a big one.

I say 3 is more representative of her ability here.

Zoning - 1

1 is just right. she can just barely zone other characters out with Tsurugi and c.MP buffered Hayate. She can get zoned out very easily if the player is not patient.

Rush - 4
Honestly why not a 5 here? She is the essence of a rush down character. Fastest dash. High priority normals and a command grab that leads to massive damage so no blocking. Fukiage for those who try to jump out of pressure, and a corner combo that stuns/kills in two combos. Nah man, I can think of only one character that can rush better than Makoto and that’s AE Yun. He’s basically Makoto with a dive kick. 5 here dawg.

Mix up - 4

you serious? 5 dawg. between Tsurugi, Karakusa, Fukiage, Opponents have NO safe options. I mean you get punished for blocking! lol. Add in OS Ultra 1 and Ultra 2, and basically once Makoto gets the upper hand she wins. game over. See you at character select. There is no chance for a character to get out against a good makoto. she will cut their options and they will not be able to escape. There is no downside to this.

Damage pot - 5

:nunchuck:

nuff said


There you have it. Makoto is an offensive powerhouse. and she does offense like no other, and has the ability to punish any decision an opponent makes. She also has multiple ways to destroy an opponen’t decision making ability. Once they hesitate, the round is over. There is no second chance with her. That’s why she is known as the “all in” character.

However her defense is lacking. She must rely on the player rather than her SF traits to hunt her opponent. It takes patience, and this is something that the character itself does not like. she is taylor made for offensive mind. And unless the player knows how to pick up the slack in her poor areas she will suffer a loss everytime.

Your guesses are close IMO. The only one that REALLY needs to change is anti air.The others are debatable and probably just me being greedy :smokin:

No your categories are good IMO. I’d like to see how the members in the community rate their characters. Honestly you’re going to get a lot of petitions for 5s though lol. I’m particularly interested to see how the Yun community feels. Good stuff though man. This should make for some great readings when you post findings (and/or other members thoughts) in the original thread.

EDIT - HOWEVER you may want to add a few categories anyway because a lot of characters will add up to the same score. does that mean balance???

lmao

Thanks again, Mossad. Mak is my favorite character to use but I am terrible with her. I’d be interested to see V-Ryu and Robot’s input as well.

Is this your rating?
4, 3, 1, 5, 5

As far as categories go I’m thinking of adding one that represents overall MU numbers, and perhaps one that shows how dependent a character is on EX usage.

And I think most people that use characters that deserve 5s are more likely to insist that the character is a 3 or 4…

I don’t agree with AA and reversal in the same section. You know Dhalsim? SS quality AA, F- quality reversals. While they’re both defensive qualities, they’re really in different leagues.

Health - 4

Yep, 4 is right.

Reversals - 2

She can get out of 90% of non-dive kick situations with the right reversal, but outside of crouch teching, she’s putting as much on the line as her opponent. In terms of options she’s a 4, in terms of risk vs. reward she’s a 1.

AA - 5

V-Ryu’s Fukiage trigger shows why you can’t jump at her, near her, or full screen from her. <3 c.MK and s.MK are pretty brain dead, too.

Zoning - 3

IMO she actually keeps out a lot of the cast better than they can keep her out. She has all the tools to demolish ways in. I’d say she’s better at keeping out certain characters than someone with a fireball, IE Ryu vs. Abel or Fei Long compared to Makoto’s pokes of justice.

Rush - 3

If she had some retarded free way in, like neutral jumping into dive kick mix ups from sweep range like Yun, I’d say a 5. But, she doesn’t, she has to take risks to get in.

Mix up - 5

As Nuts said, she has an option to punish any defensive option in the game, mainly due to the new c.LK and Blockakusa. The only thing that really gives her trouble is backdashing when giving pressure.

Damage pot - 5

With 2 bars, she can turn a c.MP into Ultra-level damage.

Awesome. General consensus seems that I need to split Reversals and AAs. I think Reversals might could stand by their own but I only want 7-8 total categories, so I’ll keep AA’s and other pressure tools together. Does that sound good?

This totally reminds me of those guidebooks for Shonen Jump series a la Bleach and Naruto where the author rates the various characters’ abilities.

I used to play RPGs all the time, then one day I realized I really just like fiddling with the character creation systems. Now I design RPG systems for fun.

Everyone else here already beat me to everything I wanted to say.

Kind of meta, but I think Makoto is the most mindgame-intensive character in the game. Moreso than Fuerte’s “choose a random option and pray it works” or Yun’s “faceroll on buttons until something hits” gameplay. Makoto’s options are all inherently risky, but lead to HUGE payoffs if they succeed. A very well balanced risk-reward ratio, and thusly one of the most balanced characters in the game in my opinion.

I agree. I’d win far more often with her but I fall apart on the execution side. My fingers are too old.

I like this very much , That graphic shows a player if a character is solid or not , tiers dont matter - THIS does. And when I was watching the graph I said the same numbers as the mossad man , then I read what he said and we completely matched on opinions and rating points overall , although as far as reversals or anti airs go I think it’s between 1 and 2 cause every decent/good player knows how good fukiage is , they wont jump mindlessly , all that is left is ex oroshi which can also be easily option selected , although ex karakusa stops safe jumps and low attacks … hmm I changed my mind … her wake up is 2 definitely lol … I’m so ill and stupid right now , I need to pull my head out of my ass

@mossad Makoto is a SHE , you shouldnt make that mistake even without realizing … you make us look bad :[ lol (I think you said he in the Rush part of your explanation)

Lol Zak you’re crazy! I fixed it man… I’m so so so sorry :frowning:

Oh and RM you are fucking on point again man.

You should be , shame on ye … lol

New stats for Mak:

Health - 4
Reversal - 2
AA - 5
Zoning - 3
Rush - 3
Mix up - 4
Damage potential - 5

Thoughts?

Aside from Yun and Yang, and maybe Abel, who has a better mix-up than Makoto? Even Zangief and T-Hawk, while very scary up close due to their grabs, don’t have that many mix-ups.

I keep going back and forth on mix up, as well as the zoning and rush, as there is so much overlap. The problem is I see mix up as being options to deal damage averaged over all ranges. She has tons of options close, a fair number at mid distance, but lacks in the long range.

Given that definition, am I right, or am I missing something? You guys are my experts, I’m naught but a scrub.

I don’t agree with your definition of mixup. I see mixups as primarily close-range attacks/options that mess with your opponents blocking. I don’t understand what mixing up an opponent from fullscreen even means.

mixup usually doesn’t include fullscreen options, since they pretty much all lose to down-back. yoga sniper maybe … ?

makoto has a great mixup but she has no confirms coming from a low. that’s a huge part of the puzzle that’s missing for her.