Input on Makoto's abilities

Dhalsim and Seth both are obvious characters that have long range mix up options, Elf has some but more in the mid range, Ibuki and Akuma both have their defensive and offensive options that can start from various ranges, Guy and Vega have some long range mix ups as well. Balrog’s hi/low rush punch is a simple long range mix up.

I wouldn’t weight the long range as heavily as close and mid but I do feel it is an element of the game. Nothing is set in stone but I do think it has some merit.

Ultimately I want this to be a resource for people other than myself, so if my thought processes are flawed or contrary to the norm I’ll concede. I want to hammer out the definitions for each category more than I want to define fighting game vernacular. At the same time the categories have to readily coincide with common usage.

Oh yeah. Seth and Dhalsim’s fireball-teleport stuff. I’m dumb. Thanks for clearing that up.

I still have an issue with the definition though. I mean, what’s the point of mixups anyway? To keep the opponent on the fucking ground, right? Range shouldn’t matter; a knockdown is a knockdown.

So, a character with a “5” rating in mixup should have the following: 1) many ways to achieve untechable knockdowns (no matter the range), 2) after getting one knockdown, said character should have many options to maintain pressure to achieve yet another untechable knockdown.

How can makoto not be a 5 in this regard?

She has a sweep AND a low starting combo after EX Hayate which I use all the time :stuck_out_tongue:

EDIT: You can hit confirm st MP > sweep in a counter-hit cause it looks so damn obvious that its a CH , I never miss it

Um guys this is all very simple.

Makoto
Mixup with U1-4

Mixup with U2-5

Done.

EDIT - Cause you best believe that U2 is a threat from long range lol.

Ryu/Sagat/Oni/Akuma/Seth/Sakura/Dhalsim/Guile throws fireball…*ends up at character select screen. (wtf happened??)

Instant overheads=U2 Full Animation
Focus attacks =U2 Full Animation
Backdashing=U2 Full Animation
Whiff normals (Medium or higher)=U2 Full Animation
Blocked forward moving specials (blanka balls etc)=U2 Full Animation
Full screen jumping=U2 no animation, but 2x Fuki>Tsurugi
Baited throw/tech=U2 Full Animation

Catch my drift? U2 punishes full screen actions very harshly. It makes Sagat/Seth/Oni stop throwing fireballs allowing you to get close. Its not really even U2. Its the threat of U2 that makes it so valuable. Imagine Sagat with no fireball? lol. Imagine Blanka with no blanka ball? Guile with No sonic boom? Oh and did I mention you’re looking at almost 600 damage a pop?

Just saying…

I love U2.

And… now I’m editing the spreadsheet to have two columns for each character so we can rate them with each Ultra.

So U1 Mak:
Health - 4
Reversal - 2.5
AA - 5
Zoning - 3
Rush - 3
Mix up - 4
Damage potential - 5

U2 Mak:
Health - 4
Reversal - 2
AA - 5
Zoning - 3
Rush - 3
Mix up - 5
Damage potential - 5

I upped her reversal a tad for U1, that seem right? Should her U1 mix up be 4.5? Should her zoning for U2 go up to 3.5? I’m seeing a 3 and a 4 for rush? Split the difference, or do one of you concede the other’s point?

I PM’ed V-Ryu, hopefully he will add his input.

Actually it looks like we have a 1 and a 3 for zoning. What is the consensus?

OH SORRY i was wrong not mixup. it should’ve been zoning for U2 right? its a tough choice. I said mixup because of how I primarily use U2 (crossup and anti backdash). I’m not one to sit back and wait for a projectile. Its more like EX Hayate, Dashx2, U2 to beat SRK/Throw attempt/most ultras/backdash. One GLARING flaw though is that it loses to blocking lol. But by that time I shouldve made them not want to block by using EX Hayate dashx2>Karakusa/Normal Throw/s.HK/meaty s.lp or c.LK and/or EX Hayate, dash, Forward jump HP/HK Tsurugi making their ultra or SRK whiff. Then dash punish. I usually only use it after I’ve taken all of their options away OR if i see that they’ve had a successful back dash or two during the round. Then its go time.

Ok here we go lets try this again:

So U1 Mak:
Health - 4
Reversal - 3 (EX kara>U1 is a BEAST of a reversal)
AA - 4 (thinking about moving this down because fuki can be safejumped easily)
Zoning - 2 (I still dont’ see how she can be higher than that…)
Rush - 3
Mix up - 4 (really want this to be 5… but lack of long range options hurt. See Guile/Sagat/etc)
Damage potential - 5

U2 Mak:
Health - 4
Reversal - 2 (leaving this… U2 is a good reversal, but you have to aim it, and it can be inconsistent when used defensively)
AA - 4
Zoning - 2
Rush - 3
Mix up - 5 (if we keep long range in this category yes. Otherwise, U2 should be added to “zoning.” Your call)
Damage potential - 5

I rearranged some points. They both add up to 25 so nobody can complain that mak with one ultra is better than the other :nono:

I’d also like to point out that… almost all of these are offensive categories. That’s why she seems to score high. Maybe another category like… Escape options should be considered? or quantifying how the character deals with things like dive kick pressure and instant overheads? or character movement? IDK

Initially I had the AAs/ reversals/ escape options and the like grouped together in the same category, theory being they are all ways to deal with pressure. Not sure what to do at this point…

My Fei numbers are suspect but this is what we have so far. Eventually I plan on making this a spreadsheet with pull down menus to pick up to three characters but for now, jpgs.

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5412/mak2x.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

If you plan on a cohesive chart, you can’t afford to split every character into U1 and U2.

Are you saying that as there would be too much data for the chart to be legible?

Right.

Did you get those numbers for Fei from the Fei forums? Those numbers seem wrong …

There would be two entries per character, one for each Ultra. So 78 entries in the pull down menu; you needn’t have both versions of a character in a graph at once unless you wish. I did so above just to illustrate the two Mak’s we are going on about.

Naw, the Fei numbers are crap. I’ve only posted in a few character sub forums, waiting until I have all the bugs worked out of the format. I have enough feedback now to get things straight before I start posting in earnest.

His numbers looking wrong proves the value of this project, I feel. I’ve been graphing random characters and wondering what the hell I was thinking when I assigned their numbers. The direct comparisons, obviously, add context that brings flaws to light.

Do you feel we have Makoto mapped out? Excepting the health, I’m changing the numbering for that.

Something like this:
0 - 800/850
1- 900
2 - 950
3 - 1000
4 - 1050
5 - 1100

Or:

0 - 800
1 - 850
2 - 900
3 - 950
4 - 1000
5 - 1050/ 1100

If a character has a stun rating equal to their stamina they get the corresponding whole number, if it is lower or higher they get the .5 value above or below, whichever is appropriate.

… or I could stop being so anal retentive and make the rating go to 6.

exactly the same rates and thinking as Robot Makoto :slight_smile:
except reversal, where i put 4 mid-screen, and 2 in corner against divekickers, especially which have a command throw.

But in fact, it’s too difficult to rate. LOL.
Depends so much where you are on the screen… what is opponent hitbox (rose/chun backdash are annoying, for example), if you have meter or not, etc etc :x

Really v-ryu You think she has a 4 for reversals mid screen?

4 seems awful high considering that the chart only goes up to 5.

I feel like part of what needs to be looked at isn’t just how strong the reversal is when it hits, but how consistent it is.

For example, karakusa-u1 as a reversal deals a ton of damage sure. But not only does it require U1 (meaning half health already or less) but it is a one time deal, and unless you use EX you can’t really reversal during a block string or dropped combo as it is too slow and vunerable usually.

I agree with robot that her rush is probably only a 3 as while she is the epitome of a rushdown character she doesn’t have any easy way to get in. Once she IS in she is great but she doesn’t have moves like rekka to bully her way in, or a dive kick to come in at a hard to handle angle, or any sort of invincible move like yang’s roll kick or abel’s roll.

I can’t think of a character besides Yun/Yang/Abel/Akuma that has mixups equal to what Makoto can put out. Def a 5 there.

This is exactly right. Same applies to Damage Potential. Well all of the categories really…

Keep my statements with a grain of salt though. v-ryu has hundreds of hours more experience than I do and knows the character and matchups so much more than I do it isn’t even funny. He could probably beat me with his TV turned off.