Hey guys. I’m relatively new to the fighting game scene. I just started three months ago when i started going to a weekly even at a buddies place where we just drink and mash out SSF4 for hours on end. I picked up my arcade stick recently and rarely ill have some input problems. I can solve most of them with some repetition training in training mode. But i was wondering, are there any videos out there showing the input some pros or veterans use. Like a video with a POV looking at the STICK, rather than the game?
This might not be the most relevant inputs for you, but it was the first one I found:
I think his other “trials” vids have a “hand cam” too.
Edit: Yup. Hit that link and all the “related videos” are trials for other characters with the same double view.
I suggested this a while back in the main thread on this forum, as I agree it would be helpful, but it didn’t get a great response. I am searching for good ones outside of this forum however and will let you know if I find any.
I would really like to see someone trusted take on this kind of thing however for not just SSFIV but UMvC3, MK9, KOFXIII, etc. as there are differences from game to game on timings and effective motions for complex super’s and combos.
Yea man, this is awesome. We don’t hold the stick the same way but it is helpful none the less.
Princess: Yea, if we could get a thread and compare how we hold sticks, and the pros and cons for each strategy that would be stellar. So far this community has been ultra supportive and welcoming. I’m sure it wouldnt be too far of a stretch to garner support for this idea.
Long story short: you are really over thinking this. Most people who play at above the newbie level don’t give much–if any–thought to their grip. The reason there aren’t many people who discussing pros and cons of stick grips is that by the time they are good enough to have an informed opinion, the topic is rather moot.
I personally recommend having the side of the heel of your palm which opposes the thumb act as a pivot point for most motions, but your millage may vary. By the time you get to some level of competence with execution, you’ll have fallen into a grip you’re comfortable with anyway.
If you’re implying that i didn’t read the beginner’s thread, i did. I recognize that i am inputting wrong, there’s no question. I was just looking for advice on how to facilitate my growth in skill, starting with a more precise input method.
I disagree. However I do agree with your point that for “most” people who “figure it out for themselves” that by the time they figure it out, they stop asking how to figure it out.
However, if we want the fighting game community to grow, the idea is to elevate the “newbie” level players as FAST and BEST as possible. That means the “veterans” helping the new players figure this stuff out via the path of least resistance.
There’s something deeper psychologically at play here however; most of the people who have spent years growing up in the arcades, or practicing the complex combos for hours on end in training mode, subconsciously don’t “want” to help… not in a malicious way, but in a “I don’t think it’s necessary because no one really helped me and now I’m winning tournaments,” kind of way. It’s not a “bad” thing, and is completely natural… especially in a competitive environment.
The benefits of some of the things were discussing here and why we’re “over thinking” it, is that rather figure everything out through trial and error, and error, and error, and error (and so on), is that if someone can “teach” us the right way to do things the first time, even as a “newbie,” then we can work on practicing the right way, we can get over that initial complexity gap that keeps people OUT of the fighting game genre in general.
Imagine trying to learn baseball on your own? Sure, eventually, if you have a ball thrown at you 100’s of times, you learn “a way” to hit it, maybe even an effective way… if nothing else out of self-defense; but how long and how much effort would this take, versus someone showing you a good way to hold the bat, a good way to pivot into your swing, etc. etc.
The concepts translate, and I think a lot of us who are interested in bringing our game up to the level of competition, who are watching these combo videos that just seem to flow like a perfect dance, get discouraged because we don’t even know physically how it’s possible.
I saw an article here on “chunking” a while back, and it was incredibly helpful… but what would have made it even more helpful is having someone sit down with a webcam and a capture device going, “okay, here’s how we develop a good ‘chunk’, for this combo, first the trick is linking the launcher to the air jump, and here’s the timing for the light light medium; if you do it too late, this is what will happen, if you do it too early, you’ll miss the link entirely and it will look like this… so you want to make sure you time the hits between here, and here.”
This is awesome, and Trouble, i dont want you to think you offended me. I just thought while i am confident i can perfect my input on my own, it made more sense to seek help and increase my skill sooner rather than later. I can learn and perfect all the combos i want, but the foundation of playing is your input. I cant move on to advance any other skills until i am confident my input will come out correctly. Nothing frustrates mo more than when i see an oppurtunity to punish with my Sagat and pull off the three beggining moves of my combo only to have my Tiger Uppercut turn into a dash and i get thrown. I am just trying to advance in my skill as quickly as possible so i can be on a more even plane with my peers.
I can assure you, I didn’t write an execution guide out of a deep-rooted psychological desire to see newbies walk to school uphill in snow. To be frank, new players these days already have things a lot easier than people did in the arcade generation. Inputs in SF4/MVC3 are a lot easier and more forgiving than their predecessors. Training mode is not a luxury that people had in the early 90s. I have no problem with these things. I encourage new players to make the most of the tools they have available to them.The thing is, what you’re proposing is both impractical and harmful for the long-term development of a player.
Making videos of players hands performing every BnB in every game is time consuming, impractical, and not really useful. Take MvC3 for example. The original version of the game was only out for 8 months before it was replaced by Ultimate. Most of the bnbs for my main in Ultimate have changed radically. All of the time spent on making that original video would have more or less been wasted. On top of that, if I was reliant on those sort of videos to see what I’m doing wrong, I’d have to way for someone to make a new one for ultimate. Using trial and error, I was able to adjust on my own.
Learning through trial and error isn’t an optional process. It’s we all have to do in order to develop execution. If you need to see what a combo looks like before you try it, that’s fine too. I certainly make use of this sort of thing. What you need to see is not the player’s hands, but what’s happening on the screen. I get your baseball analogy. The thing is, you are over-stressing the unimportant part and not recognizing the important part. How you hold an arcade stick is a helluva lot less important that holding a baseball bat (or any other piece of sporting goods). You can watch someone swing a baseball bat all you want, but at the end of the day, you are going to need to swing the damn thing a lot yourself if you want to get good. On top of that, imagine if every new baseball player had a slow motion camera set up behind them when working on hitting? That’s exactly the information input display gives you.
If you don’t have the ability to diagnose your own execution problems, you are limiting your competitive potential. I use the exact advice in the sticky very regularly. When I want to learn something new in a fighting game, looking for a video of player’s hands is not something that even crosses my mind. It’s simply not useful information. I really wish I could get you to understand that you’re looking at this assbackwards, but it seems like you aren’t very willing to listen to people more experienced than you.
This is a frustration that everyone, even top players, experience. I guarantee you, watch enough tournament videos and you will see some really tragic dropped combos by very good players. It just happens. Just keep working at it.
Let me ask you, what are you doing for a punish? How is it you think you’re getting a dash instead? Do you get the same error regularly in training mode or is it only in matches?
I normally punish with a c.lk c.lk c.lp TU and then if i have meter ill attempt a FADC St.hk ultra, but im still working on perfecting my execution on that one. Any recommendations? And even if we stood on opposing views for a moment, thanks for all your advice.
I wouldn’t use that as a punish for one. That (or a variation of that) is what you ought to be using to hit confirm from block strings. When punishing there is no need to hit confirm; you already have the confirm.
c.lk, c.lp, c.lp > HP.DP: 168 damage / 280 stun
Standing HK (one hit) > HP.DP: 200 damage / 300 stun
c.mp > HK.TK: 230 damage / 300 stun
The bottom two do more damage and stun, plus there aren’t any links. Also, as a punish, you’ll do more damage with s.hk (or c.mp) > hp.dp > forward HK > ultra than you will off f the c.lk, c.lp, c.lp > DP combo, 521 damage on the first and 387 on the second. So you’ll get (a lot) more damage off an easier combo. The hit confirm version of the combo has two additional (weak damage) hits before the ultra, so it is affected more by damage scaling.
You might want to check the stickies in the Sagat section though, I’m not a Sagat player.
As for your original question, if your DP is turning into a dash, you’re getting ahead of yourself. Practice the hit confirm portion in training mode up to the DP > focus attack, then add the dash (and so on).
I think you’re disregarding different learning styles however. I would say a good portion of what I learned in the arcade on how to do thinks like SRK’s were “shown” to me by the people that were beating me, some as far as physically moving my hand and saying “first this, then this, THEN this” and then it would click.
If I were YOU, yes, I’d be looking at it “assbackwards” but I’m not, and a lot of people aren’t you. Some people are kinesthetic learners and require the physical imprint of “how to do something correctly” before they can truly grasp the concept. Some are visual, where they need to actually see a correct way to do something before they can devise their own.
I think that’s where the point is being missed… I’m not suggesting a video to show the “proper way to hold a stick,” but rather as a starting point, i.e. “here’s how I do this complicated combo.” And sure, while combo’s and timings change from title to title, sometimes just a few examples can give players concepts that they can take with them and apply to others as things evolve and change.
While you may have more experience in me in how to play fighting games, you may be discounting my experience as a teacher/trainer; and while “guides” and “FAQ’s” are certainly helpful, if that’s all we need, we wouldn’t have teachers, we’d only have textbooks; does that make sense?
My goal here is not to “argue” with you or “not listen to people more experienced” than me, but I think a lot of us learn differently than you and many others in the community. You can’t expect everyone to rise to the same level if only given the information in one way.
It’s also not a matter of “not practicing enough” as some people can practice for hours and make no progress unless they are shown how to do something correctly so they can use that as a building point. Those VesperArcade videos are great (though I wish it would be broken apart a little more) and I would love to see more things like that put out there.
I don’t want to offend or start a flame war, but I also don’t want to discourage players that are having a hard time learning by simply saying “you’re doing it wrong.”
Actually, I find when giving people instructions verbally and they just don’t get it, I automatically decide to hold their hand and run them through a certain move or a segment of a combo (never for the full thing) And I do it slowly as well, so they can feel the clicks, and the points they’re supposed to be hitting, (I’m an ST player so that’s more important than say, SF4) and I never thought of this but I guess that gives a better visual learning experience as well, as they’re staring down at their own hand getting all this in slow motion.
Now, VesperArcade’s videos are something that are practical, and are useful for these new fighting games. To break them down even more, I would agree with trouble brewing. It’s kinda pointless to go from MvC3 to UMvC3 months later, the changes in 80% of combos people can figure out themselves, or they can build off the original MvC3 guides themselves (given that they can pull off the combos from those guides).
With ST however, there are actually videos where they break things down, for say, supercancels, and even repeat the video in slow motion a few times. Why do I think this is more justified? well, ST has been around for what… 15 years? It’s not going anywhere. These videos were actually made recently, I thought they were pretty useless, but I can see from this thread they might help many more people than I originally thought. and they also apply to HDR. in ST combos and inputs are “simpler” but “more strict” if you understand my idea. Videos for execution would be shorter, and would be useful for longer periods of time. I bet if they release yet another version of SF2, all those videos would once again apply, without even any minor changes.
I certainly understand different learning styles, I teach piano, and also do some work with camp groups. But different situations sometimes makes it impractical to go further for certain learning styles. And others make it easier to facilitate. (again, my example with ST, and I’m always willing to go through a portion of a combo by literally holding someone’s hand in person.)
edit: I decided to look up those ST videos I was talking about
and then hey look, there’s a handful of SF4 and even SSF4AE videos as well! here:
Look through their channel, you may find something helpful.
Those videos are exactly what I am talking about. I can process 400% more information from seeing that (even without audio, as I am at work) than I can reading a ‘description’ of what “plinking” is ten times in a row. Brilliant stuff. I’d love to see that level of detail by some of the top guys here.
This thread is a great example of why the education major is one of the single largest problems in the American education system.