Is SSF4-AE Unbalanced? (A detailed analysis)


#1

OK, so I’ve been all over the internet lately reading over what people have to say about SSF4-AE and I can’t help but notice the fact that A LOT of people are complaining on the top of their lungs about how they feel that SSF4-AE is “unbalanced.” Obviously, there’s a lot of hate going against Yun, most of which is uncalled for and unjustified. People have also made unwarranted comments about how Capcom “nerfed the entire cast in AE” which is another statement that is unwarranted and not back up by any facts.

I originally addressed these issues in TWO DIFFERENT threads on the eventhubs forum. The original thread was locked because there were LOTS of personally directed insults going back and forth. And probably the main reason why the thread was locked was because I, the OP, was guilty of engaging in throwing insults directed to other posters. Here’s the first eventhubs thread for those who are interested: http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7301

But after that, I talked to one of the mods who locked up the first thread and he has given me permission to re-open up this discussion on the agreement that I will not be directing any personal insults at others there. But unfortunately, the second thread was also locked up; but this time the reason for locking up the thread was blatantly unfair by all standards. Basically one of the posters who disagreed with my perspective purposely started to spam the thread and throw insults and death threats around in order to provoke the mods to lock it up. The mods knew that he was doing it on purpose, but decided to let him have his way anyways and keep the thread locked up rather than giving that guy any kind of warnings. Here’s the second eventhubs thread: http://forums.eventhubs.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7342

So with that being said. I like to ask people who happen to come across this thread to please read through it carefully and write any feedbacks as needed. I understand that many folks here may not agree with what I have to say and that this may be a more sensitive issue to the SF community, but I urge people here to be as civilized as possible.

Now my take on Yun is this. On one hand, I do agree that he’s one of the three S-Tier characters alongside Fei and Yang when it comes to the professional level of gameplay; but what I don’t agree with are all the people who claim that he’s “broken.” Nor Do I agree with the folks who say that he’s so vastly over-powered that he renders more than half of the cast as “unplayable.” Both of those assertions are complete exaggerations where reality is blown far out of proportions.

Contrary to what these random novice-players are saying on the internet, Yun is not a character made for noobs. Yun is not like Vanilla-Sagat or SSF4-Guile, two characters which any random noob could just pick up and then start playing beastly with. Matter of fact, if a random novice-players tries to jump the gun and use Yun, then he’ll most likely get BODIED HARD. Why? Answer: Because it actually takes a fair level of skill to win with Yun. Yun does have his advantages over other characters, but it does take a fair amount of execution skills to fully put those advantages to use. A lot of Yun’s offensive options entail more risk and exposure than people may think. Not only that but Yun’s health is fairly low which means he loses quickly. On top of that, Yun’s defense game and wake-up game aren’t good at all.

Yun is only S-Tier when you consider the professional level of SF4 play, where everyone has pristine executions and are able to pull off what moves they want to pull off plus where and when they want to pull’em off. But when it comes to the casual level of gameplay, most casual players just do not have the pristine execution skills of pros. And Yun is definitely not S-Tier if we are considering a crowd full of casual players. When you look at people with on-point execution, on-ppoint spacing, etc… the tier-list are going to change when comparing people who execution, spacing, etc… are not so good.

Something that many people don’t understand is that the Tiers do change when considering different levels of gameplay. The tiers made up by pro-SF4 players are not a good representation of what the tier chart should look like when considering a crowd full of average gamers. Like I’ve said before, Yun is only rightfully S-Tier when it comes to the professional level. But if were only considering casual gamers, such as the average Xbox-Live and PSN users, then Yun is B-Tier at the highest. It’s not like I don’t play Xbox live or PSN, matter of fact I play both networks nearly daily and I know the skill level of the average online SF4 player. I’m quite familiar with what the average online SF4 players are capable off. And judging from that experience, I have to say that Yun is B-Tier at the highest when it comes to the tier list for casual/online SF4 players. Now I’m basing this assertion off of this tier-list posted around a month back:

Considering the limited skills and capabilities possessed by the average online gamer, it’s note likely that Yun is of a higher tier than the AE versions of Ken, Dictator, Boxer, and Chun-Li.

Now what do I mean when I say that Yun is more like B-Tier when it comes to the level of the average casual/online gamer? Answer: What I’m saying is that most of the casual and online gamers just do not have the same level of skills and capabilities as the professional players do. And players with a limited set of skills and capabilities will actually find it easier to pull of victories online using one of the B-Tier characters than winning with Yun due to the fact that winning with Yun does take a fair level of executional prowess, and Yun has low health plus poor defense and wake-up games. Matter of fact, there have even been players who say that they have an easier time racking up victories with C-Tier characters than racking up victories with Yun.

Yun is not like Vanilla Sagat, where you can win by spamming those Tiger-shots and mashing-DPs. Vanilla Sagat had a much better turtling game than AE Yun does. Plus it was safer to mash DPs with Sagat because Sagat can FADC his DP, which means that if the opponent blocks then you can FADC to safety. Yun cannot FADC his Dragon-Kicks to safty, and we’ve all seen footages of Yun being punished hard after having his Dragon-Kicks blocked by the other player. Not only that, but I remember playing with and against Vanilla-Sagat, and how Sagat was able to live through MUCH more mistakes and errors than Yun is in AE because of the fct that Vanilla-Sagat had A TON OF HEALTH while AE-Yun has fairly low health.

Yun is not as bad as SSF4-Guile either. SSF4-Guile was actually worse than Vanilla-Sagat. Yes, I did just say that SSF4-Guile was WORSE than Vanilla-Sagat. People have said that playing with Yun is “easy-mode” and that random novice-players can “auto-pilot” their way while using Yun. People who say such things were obviously high on crack when writing and they must of confused AE-Yun with SSF4-Guile. SSF4-Guile was WAYYY MORRE of an “easy-mode” character than AE-Yun. Racking up cheap and “auto-piloted” victories was much easier to do with SSF4-Guile than it is with AE-version of Yun.


#2

Now do I think that SSF4-AE is perfectly balanced? Absolutely NOT!!! But, I do feel that SSF4-AE is in fact the most balanced game of the SF4 series.

When going from SSF4 --> AE, most of the characters that received more nerfs than buffs were characters at the upper-end of the tier list. Practically all of the lower-end of the tier list received more buffs than nerfs. Characters such as Guy, Gen, Deejay, Cody, T.Hawk, Hakan, Makoto, Juri, and Dan were very hard to pull off victories with in SSF4. But now in AE, those characters are now actually on a more even playing field with the rest of the cast. All those characters you’ve just mentioned (Guy, Gen, Deejay, Cody, T.Hawk, Hakan, Makoto, Juri, and Dan) have a much easier time taking on the Twins in AE than they did taking on SSF4-Guile in SSF4. I’ve actually played Dee-Jay and Cody for quite a while in SSF4. And trying to beat a lame-defensive SSF4-Guile with those two characters in SSF4 was like hitting a brick wall. I don’t have a hard time against the twins at all when using those two in AE.

Not to mention, most of the characters listed did not have a real way to answer to Cammy abusing the broken TKCS. But all these characters do have legitimate ways to answer to the twins’ dive-kicks. When I played with Dee-Jay and Cody in SSF4, I had a much harder time countering against Cammy’s TKCS than I have with Yun’s divekicks in AE.

People who still think that AE is less balanced than SSF4 should try playing Dan in AE. I’ve been playing AE-Dan these past few days and I fund that beating Fei Long and the Twins with Dan in AE is much easier than beating the S-tiers of SSF4 (Honda, Guile, and Bison) while using SSF4-Dan. Now Dan has always been the worst character in all three games of the SF4 series. Now if the worst character has an easier time beating the S-Tier characters in AE than he did in SSF4, then does that not signify better balance? Does the fact that Dan now has a MUCH better chance of beating the S-tier characters mean anything at all? I think it does.
People say that the biggest gap difference between the higher-tier and lower-tier characters was with AE-Yun and the rest of the cast, something which I don’t agree with. Matter of fact, the biggest gap-difference between the lower-tier characters and the higher-tier characters was actually in SSF4 not in AE. In SSF4, Guile dominated most of the cast. Not only did Guile dominate most of the rest of the cast, but Guile also dominated the other S-Tiers in SSF4. Now Guile had favorable match-ups against all of the other two S-Tiers of SSF4. AE-Yun, on the other hand, does not have favorable match-ups against the other two S-Tier characters of AE.

Some people have claimed that SSF4, did not have any S-Tiers. Again such claims aren’t even true as even the eventhubs chart shows that SSF4 clearly had its S-tier characters:

http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/

The tiers are color coded with S-tier = Gray, A+ tier = Green, A-tier = Red, and B-tier = purple, etc….
If you look at all the tiers for Vanilla-SF4, you’ll see the same color scheme with Sagat being the only character of S-tier which is also color-coded in gray on the Vanilla-SF4 tiers list. S-Tier is basically just a generic term for the characters at the highest level of the tiers chart. And in SSF4, there were characters who were placed into the highest category of the tier charts, and on eventhubs, they used color-coding to show it with S-tier being Gray.

Now the tier lists of eventhubs does list the Guile-Dictator match-up to be 7-3 in Guile’s favor, but many people have came forwards and stated that they feel that the Guile-Dictator match-up is more like 8-2 in Guile’s favor. Also, many folks have stated that the Guile-Honda match-up is more like 7-3 in Guile’s favor or even 8-2 in Guile’s favor. A lot of people have said that the Guile-Honda being only 6-4 is an understatement on how much advantages Guile has in that match.

Again, I know this thread is bound to encounter folks who are not in agreement with my perspective on these topics at hand. But you’re welcome to comment on and point out things that you agree with, disagree with, flaws in my argument, etc…


#3

Watching this…


#4

You basically present your opinion here and at the same time insult the people who are not with you on this. If you really wanted to make a point here, you have to rewrite your whole text and get rid of the stupid vote. It´s not a detailed analysis, but more of a rant tbh.


#5

http://drewminh.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/michael-jackson-eating-popcorn.gif


#6

Can you please point out what is it that you found insulting and where in the two posts it’s located? Perhaps I can change it or edit it out to avoid any flame wars here.

BTW, the option for the vote is there so that people can create polls when they feel necessary. I created the poll for a reason because I do believe that LOTS of people all over the web are greatly exaggerating the issue of inbalance in AE and blowing things way out of proportions. I made the poll to see if more people out there agree with me on that one.


#7

Sure.


#8

Your points are valid, but kinda pointless. I remember reading your threads back then and the only thing I could do was shaking my head.
This thread is pointless, they are always going to bitch about Yun, that’s not going to change until he gets nerfed to death.


#9

plus.

Contrary to what these random novice-players are saying on the internet, Yun is not a character made for noobs.

People say that the biggest gap difference between the higher-tier and lower-tier characters was with AE-Yun and the rest of the cast. Such a claim is pure non-sense.

Try to be a bit more polite towards people thinking otherwise :wink:

Just saying.


#10

Why is the poll a checkbox poll? Shouldn’t those be radio buttons? What if we vote for both at the same time?


#11

Should have posted this.


#12

Thanks for your reply.

But I sort of disagree with your comment about my original thread being “pointless.” Although, I disagree with you comment about my thread being pointless, I do in fact agree with your observation that the Yun-Haters “are always going to bitch about Yun, that’s not going to change until he gets nerfed to death.”

Matter of fact, that’s the MAIN REASON for why I even made the thread in the first place. It’s quite obvious that the Yun-haters are heavily biased in their opinion about how “unbalanced” Yun is and that they are not going to stop complaining until they get what they want.

I remember going from Vanilla-SF4 --> SSF4 that many people called for Sagat to be nerfed and Guile to be buffed. And what ended up happening was that Capcom OVERREACTED and over-did their nerfs to Sagat and also over-did their buffs to Guile. Sagat became an “overgrown housecat” and fighting Guile was like pounding a steel wall when using many characters.

Now the main point I wrote the first thread was because I DO NOT WANT such things to happen again. In fact, I am writing in hopes that some of the producers at Capcom does hear my voice and take my perspective into account so that they WON’T OVERREACT and do things that make the next installment of the SF series much worse than it already is.

And your reply seems to suggest that there are people within the SF-community who are purposely trying to manipulate the makers at Capcom into making their own favorite characters be the most OP and highest-tier and also manipulate Capcom into sending their most disliked characters to the bottom of the tiers list. And I am writing in attempts to put a check to that.


#13

trolololololololol.

Is AE horribly unbalanced? No. Does AE have a noticeable balance change against Super? Yeah, I think it’s noticeable. As Valle said, new powerful characters will seem almost too good at first, but over time they will be figured out and they won’t seem as strong anymore. I don’t really think there will ever be a point where Yun and Yang won’t be top 3 in the tier list unless they get nerfed, but I think they will be a little easier to play against with time once everyone gets used to it after a while. I think AE is a cool game and all, but as far as balance goes, Super was fine.

I also agree with tenshoxxx, creating a thread like this (which is no doubt controversial) then insulting people who don’t agree with you is just asking to make things a million times worse.


#14

I agree, AE is much better balanced than Super. Every matchup that was completely skewed in super was improved in AE, even if they’re yet not 5-5, they’re much, much better. The only matchups that seen really lopsided are Dhalsim vs Yun and Evil Ryu vs Dhalsim/Fei Long.

However, after seeing the hitboxes and frame data for Yun, I’m convinced he was purposedly made unbalanced. There’s no excuse to how good his normals are compared to the rest of the cast (specially with Yang) and considering the amount of tools he has avaiable. Just a quick example, his cr.mp has a huge forward and upwards hitbox, while reducing his head hitbox, making it perfect to crouch tech with it against dive kicks. E. Ryu, who was also introduced in AE, has a much worse cr.mp, with absolutely no upwards hitbox, making it much less reliable in the same scenario.

TLDR: People tend to repeat what they hear, hence the whole ‘AE is unbalanced’ everywhere.


#15

Okay, before anything else, your poll is disingenuous. Obviously there are people online exaggerating the circumstances, that’s what online is for. It doesn’t mean the character is not OP.

Regarding your actual post, you’re not backing up your theories. You’re not saying what it is about Yun that require skill to be OP, nor are you explaining why his wakeup is bad, especially against mediocre players (something I’d completely disagree with).

-edit Oh and the idea that AE is more balanced than super is so inherently absurd I’m just going to ignore it.


#16

The main complaint is coming from the top players, also one of the reasons why they hate Yun so much is because there are more Yuns than Fei and Yang players, it’s fact. If none of the pro players would complain about Yun, that would have probably never catched on and the game would be much more enjoyable.
I also thought that Guile was way too good in SSF4, but I never had big problems against him (mained Cammy and Ibuki in SSF4). Imo, not many people played with him, in fact, I faced more Bison, Blanka and Balrog players in SSF4 than Guile.
Let’s say Yun gets nerfed and is like C-B Tier, then the community would start to complain about Fei and Yang (Fei is btw. a much much bigger problem than Yun imo) Instead of nerfing those S-Tier characters to death, they should buff some of the weaker ones to make it a little bit more even, but I’m fine with the balance right now. It has it’s flaws, but I think it’s fine, they’ll figure out to beat those S tier characters eventually.

Many good players I faced in AE (Nr.1 Guy, Blankas and many others) say that Yun is beatable, you just have to get used to it.
Also what’s the point in releasing 4 new characters which are ass, like in SSF4? Very few of them were playable in a tournament setting. I’d rather have some of them stronger than others at first, get them tweaked a little and have a more balanced and enjoyable game that way.


#17

lol Ibuki raped Guile in super.


#18

I’ve already edited out the word “non-sense” part, but I have decided to keep the part about Yun and Noobs.

I’ve decided to keep it because there are many people all over the web who are saying things that are along the lines of Yun being an easy-to-use character that will allow noobs to take home tournaments for free. An allegation which I do not agree with.


#19

I only play Guile, so take my comments accordingly. I feel as though my poor character has been nerfed to hell. Not so much that he’s unplayable, but I believe most of the changes were unnecessary. I digress…

I’m not going to get emotional here, but clearly Yun / Yang are unbalanced. In my opinion, they are unbalanced enough that it must have been a purposeful decision by the designers to make them that way. You don’t accidentally “oopsie” your way into that kind of madness.

What kind of madness? Let’s take the safe combo strings for one. Both of the twins can throw out rather safe pokes that can hit confirm into deadly 5+ hit combos. Even when you expect it, countering is an issue.

Relentless dive kick pressure causes some real issues. Sure, you can counter it somewhat, but the trades that get made generally are not in my favor. If I can guess properly then it’s pretty close. But, a decent player will abuse some randomness in using the dive kicks. Very annoying to defend against.

Yun’s shoulder dash is a great example. You can focus attack it if you expect it (can’t crumple unless you FA before the attack). You can crouch hit it if you react properly. Not too shabby. Except! Your ability to really follow up on that attack is harder to pull off than it should be. My favorite part is how it can go right through projectiles or a flash kick with impunity. I’ve had Yun shoulder right through my U2 from across the screen and hit me. Absurd.

Yang’s rolling dragon kick is another great example. Completely immune to projectiles. Follows you to wherever you are before hitting you. Really annoying to counter. Can easily be followed up on afterwards by Yang.

Yun’s dash punch is also absurdly safe. It’s a bit too fast to counter on reaction (esp. online). If you guess it right then you can counter. If you guess a little wrong, you’re trading (or more likely eating it clean). Oh, and they just follow up with another one for free if they hit you with an EX.

Both of the twins can command grab as well. So, even if you block their close up shenanigans like a ninja, you are always in danger of getting grabbed and comboed.

I particularly like how Yun’s dragon kick is able to safely remove him from most wake-up situations. Don’t try to hit it either because it’ll stuff your shit hard. And, if you don’t get stuffed then he’s on the other side of the screen for a reset.

Similarly, both the twins can use their “palm punch” special to absorb fireballs for free. No chip, no meter needed, just free fireball eating. Not to mention how it really shuts down Guy’s jump-ins (my son and I alternate playing Guile and Guy online regularly). I get a kick out of watching him curse at Yun / Yang.

The combination of incredibly safe pokes, easy to do combos, amazingly safe block strings, unparalleled fireball defense, wicked capable jump-ins, easy to use cross-ups and the command grab makes both of these characters broken.

I’m not crying about it… because I’m smarter than most of the players playing online. So, when they pick Yun or Yang I’m less concerned. Invariably the point whores make stupid mistakes and get countered. Although, even those players can pull off a win if I don’t execute my defense flawlessly. If I’m unfortunate enough to fight an opponent that’s even close to my skill level… I’m at a real disadvantage. Smart twins will just turtle me out, shut down my fireball game and out poke me when I do get in on them.

Of the entire cast, those are the only characters I’d call unbalanced. And they are factually unbalanced. Just look at the frame data. :slight_smile:


#20

No one talks about the true S tier…Fei long…he was compared to vanilla Sagat and has no bad match ups in AE