Is SSF4-AE Unbalanced? (A detailed analysis)

You contradict yourself.

You shouldn’t say things like “Yun isn’t as good as SSF4 Guile at a mid-level” but then use tier lists to back up your “Guile is so awesome” argument. Tier lists are always made with high-level play in mind.

There’s a simple question you can ask yourself when talking about SSF4 Guile’s ranking in the tier lists. If he’s ranked so high, then why didn’t he win any tournaments?

Answer: cause he’s not as good as you think he is.

Only someone like Dieminion was the only Guile player doing anything with him in SSF4 and that hardly supports the “Guile is awesome” argument cause Dieminion has mained Guile forever, even before SF4. If SSF4 Guile was so good, where were all the Guile’s? I know I saw lots of Japanese SF4 Sagats, they were even winning tournaments. The biggest counter point to this is usually “cause there were no good players picking Guile”. Good players tend to gravitate towards the characters who are good.

Guile was good in SSF4, but to say any noob can pick him up and easily win with him is ridiculous. Guile was at the bottom of a large top/S-tier in SSF4.

Tournament results will show just how good Guile really was in SSF4.

unfortunately, everyone is going to have his/her jaded opinion.

[LEFT]Not sure I’d call that a contradiction… but your point is valid, sir! Guile, in the right hands, is capable of magic. If you can master the 1 frame links and do them during a fight then you can maximize your damage. Not to mention the amazing anti-air ability. I’ve been playing Guile for about 20 years now. He can be great! But, only if the player is amazingly smart (or can peer into the soul of his opponents and counter like magic). You know what I’m talking about![/LEFT]

[LEFT]In reality though, Guile is hard as shit to play. Try to master him. Put 20 thousand games in and then tell me how great he is. I was also taken aback by the OPs post about Guile being Tier-S. I’m not sure what planet he’s on when he makes that claim. Just because some amazing player with extraordinarily rare skill can beast with him doesn’t make him Tier-S. In the real world, people can’t read minds and consistently pull off amazing links in the heat of battle.[/LEFT]

Well I have removed some of the things that tenshoxxx has suggested to be insulting. And yes, I knew that this thread was going to be controversial from the very beginning; but just because something’s controversial, it doesn’t mean that we should refrain from discussing it. For example, the call to nerf Vanilla Sagat was also controversial during the days prior to the release of SSF4 mostly due to the fact that many players who mained Sagat in Vanilla did not want him to be nerfed because they wanted their own character to keep all his OP damage and stuff.

Same thing with SSF4-Cammy’s TKCS. Now I’m definitely not the only one who felt that her TKCS was broken and should have been removed from the game. Many top level pros also felt that Cammy’s TKCS should be removed especially after watching Godsgarden 2 where Sakonoko abuse the TKCS against YHCMochi, Uryo, Momochi, Daigo, etc… Now despite the fact that many non-Cammy users and also some producers and top level pros felt that the TKCS was broken and should be removed, many Cammy users started to rage and make offensive and flaming comments saying how Cammy should be allowed to keep her TKCS. Now I know that what I’m about to say may seem offensive to some, but the main reason why the removal of Cammy’s TKCS was controversial was because many Cammy users wanted to keep the broken advantage that they had over other characters.

The point I’m trying to make is that some times discussing controversial topics are unavoidable in order to make things more fair.

Actually, the thing about SSF4-Guile being S-Tier has already been discussed by me in the 2nd post of this thread.

Although I respect your opinion about SSF4-Guile being hard to play, I have to say that I completely disagree with that stance. Yes, I know that saying that SSF4-Guile is easy to pull off victories with is also my own opinion. But the thing is that I have written extensively on why I think SSF4-Guile was insanely OP back in the other two threads. Though, I did not copy and paste every single detail from the previous two threads here.

Now the reason why I did not copy and paste every little detail from the previous threads here was because I wanted to save space and avoid making whole walls full of text and stuff. But anyways, I guess I’ll just copy what I’ve written in the previous thread and put it here since the question of whether or not SSF4-Guile was OP had been singled out.

“Considering the limited skills and capabilities possessed by the average online gamer, there’s no way in hell that Yun is of a higher tier than the AE versions of Ken, Dictator, Boxer, and Chun-Li.”

OK, let me give break-down of why I think that SSF4-Guile was insanely OP.

First off, his Sonic-Boom game was extremely difficult to penetrate. In SSF4, they reduced the charge time needed for Guile to charge up a sonic-boom. Matter of fact, Guile’s charge time for Sonic-Boom was shortened to a point where he could actually keep with with Sagat in a fireball war. He could now fire off sonic-booms at the same rate as Sagat, but he actually recovers instantly from it. Sagat’s tigershots at least took time to recover while SSF4-Guile recovered almost instantly on his sonic-boom. Now if you go into the lab, you’ll see that SSF4-Guile could release a sonic-boom while certain characters are half-way through their jump arch and still pull off a block in time. On top of that Guile has the backhand as an anti-projectile, which has good range and does good damage.

Not only that, but his Sonic-Hurricane, U2, was one of the most OP ultra in SSF4. It did 420 damage, which was unusually large considering that it was a projectile. The Sonic Hurricane comes out almost instantly, and the worst part about it was that it was also easy to use it as an anti-air. If you jump towards Guile and end up eating the Sonic-hurricane, then you’ll receive the full 420 damage even if you landed at the very edge of the Sonic-Hurricane wave. This means that you can jump towards and land in a position that is around 30-40% across the screen from Guile and still eat the full sonic- hurricane if your character doesn’t touch the ground in time.

Now there have been people who asserted that “only novice players are prone to jumping into SSF4-Guile’s Sonic Hurricane.” But these videos prove that such an assertion is not accurate Sonic-Hurricanes in SSF4 as many top-pros have also lost rounds because they jumped right into SSF4-Guile’s U2.

Tokido: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCp4meJ2dws
Mago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0VyGO_L3m4
Momochi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evwz8PAO … re=related
Hisyou (A well known Rufus) player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku1akXEXr_A

Matter of fact, SSF4-Guile’s U2 could even do full damage on Fei Long’s Chickenwing:

Now something that many people overlook is the fact that SSF4-Guile also had a really good footsie game as well. Not as good as Chun-Li’s footsies, but almost just as good. Many people didn’t realize that Guile had a good footsie game in SSF4 because most of the time Guile was walking backwards to charge up his sonic-boom.

Also, his standing uppercut was one of the best anti-air normals in the game. Just take a quick look a random SSF4-Guile videos online and anyone should be able to see how effective Guile’s standing uppercut was as an anti-air.

And yes I still stand by my words that SSF4-Guile was worse than Vanilla-Sagat. Let’s revisit Vanilla-Sagat in SF4. The worst character to use against Vanilla-Sagat was probably Vanilla-Zangief. Zangief had an extremely hard time getting around Sagat’s projectile game.

But guess what? SSF4-Guile could play the same cheap projectile zoning game as Sagat could against Zangief, but the difference was that SSF4-Guile could do the same thing against a much more characters than Vanilla-Sagat could. Guile’s charge time on the Sonic-boom was shortened in SSF4 which gave him the ability to shoot fireballs as the same rate as Vanilla Sagat, but Sagat’s tigershots took time to recover while Guile recovers instantly on his SonicBooms and Guile had the backhand move to use as an anti-projectile which Sagat did not have. Guile also builds meter quite fast in SSF4 as well.

One more thing to add is that Vanilla-Zangief’s jump speed is slow, but Vanilla-Sagat was never able to do something so bold as to release a tiger-shot while Zangief was halfway through his jump-arch and still get off a block in time. SSF4-Guile could release a sonicboom while the other person’s half-way through the jump arch and still pull off a block when playing against quite a few characters.

People who say that SSF4-Guile is a good example of what “good balance” is should really take a second look at this footage right here:

One thing that should be striking is that even the commentators themselves realized that Guile had an unbalanced advantage in terms of his meterbuilding abilities with his Sonic-Boom. Not only that, but this footage showed that Guile also had pretty good footsies as well.

Daigo was around 70% across the screen when he ate the ~420 damage even anti-fireball U2 from Guile. Now if Guile can use his U2 as an anti-projectile against other characters. Then wouldn’t it be fair that Guile should be vulnerable to the same thing himself? I think so, but in SSF4, he was immune to anti-fire ultras and supers. Daigo tried to use his super as an anti-fireball when Guile was only around 40% across the screen and Guile was still able to pull off a block in him.

Not only did Guile’s U2 come out faster than Ryu’s U1 and Sagat’s U2, but Guile was immune to anti-fireball Ultras and Supers himself. Matter of fact, SSF4-Guile’s U2 comes out almost instantly and it instantly travels ~70% across the screen. Ryu and Sagat’s Ultra projectiles do travel farther across the screen than Guile’s U2, but the thing was that both Ryu and Sagat’s Ultra projectiles took time to travel across the screen. Neither Ryu or Sagat’s ultra projectile could just come out and INSTANTLY EXTEND 70% ACROSS SCREEN like Guile’s U2 did in SSF4. It was it good thing that they made the start-up time of the Guile-U2 slower.

And also, Daigo against Mago’s Fei Long while using Guile during the Canada Cup:

By the way, it’s really not that hard to use Guile air-throw against Fei’s Ex-ChickenWing. Fei Long does that weird finger gesture before actually lauching the Chicken-Wing. And when you see him do that weird finger-gesture, just immediately jump up in the air and push the jab+short and this should be able to grab Fei’s ex-Chickenwing out of the air most of the times.

With that being said, I really can’t understand how people are saying the SSF4-Guile was an example of what “good balanced” should be. I also can’t understand people who claim that AE-Yun is worse than Vanilla-Sagat or SSF4-Guile. Winning with Yun actually takes much more harder work than winning with Vanilla-Sagat or SSF4-Guile. If anyone still wants more reference to SSF4-Guile being OP, just go to youtube and search ACE EI RI N’s Guile. Now, I’ve seen ACE EI RI N’s Guile play and he does make quite a bit of errors and bad guesses, but he still manages to win because he’s using Guile. If the same amount of errors and bad guesses were made while play Yun, then he would have lost very fast because Yun had low health.

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In the post above, I’ve bold-lettered all the statements which are in fact my own opinion. But aside from those bold-letter sentences, practically all other points that I’ve made in post #27 are raw facts. Now there is a dictionary definition of what is a raw fact and what is an opinion. In all of my posts, some of the things that I say are in fact my own opinion but other things I say do qualify as raw facts.

I went through the trouble of bold-lettering all the statements which qualify as my own personal opinion because there have been people in the past who say that “everything single detail” I say in my post are my opinion. Something which isn’t even true as my posts do contain many facts as well as my opinion on certain matters.

oh gee whizz i sure do love the new balance in AE, it sure is great the way they took my characters offensive ability away despite AE being a more offensive based game, oh boy its great they took my only move with inv frames away but gave me a an impractical 2 bar combo that only deals marginaly more damage than my 1 bar bnb, having no tools to deal with yun is just super, sure do wish i could get up of the ground though

You saying in the original thread that Guile was OP and easily the best if not the best character because he dominated S tier Honda and S tier Bison, + the fact that Cammy IACS was OP and she was to good invalidates much of what you have to say, because it simply isn’t a objective argument, and those claims of yours are false.

(‘http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xYLVD379aI
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http://cdn03.okcdn.okmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Zoolander_2_Ben_Stiller_Oct11newsne.jpg

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Guile’s only shining moments in Super were a Daigo VS Wong double-KO, and Daigo’s counter pick against Mago’s Feilong. Impressive, but we need more to admit he was on par with Vanilla Sagat or AE Yun.

just thought id drop my two cents in here:

First off, i agree about the guile thing. b/t vanilla and super, guile received way too many buffs, just because he was deemed terrible in vanilla. Now that hes been nerfed so that people are convinced hes more balanced, watch capcom do the exact same thing with another char that was bad in super. Makoto. She was admittedly pretty bad in super, but the changes she got in AE were again, too much. Capcom cant seem to find a balanced middle ground, i dont know why. Not taking anything away from Makoto players, but shes definitely jumped from terrible to A tier. Its this failure to truly “balance” that pisses people off.

I also believe that people’s biggest gripe with the balancing in AE is because we were told, and to an extent, shown that AE would indeed correct some wrongs. example: charge chars were nerfed to make the game progress faster and less turtling. Some chars got great buffs and others got “balanced” or nerfed. Now in general, most of these nerfs werent too blatant, (abel got hit hard and some others), but overall it seemed like every character was more or less competent and playable against each other.

Now introduce the twins. not only did the twins showcase poor character design, they also blatantly had some of the things that were deemed “unbalanced” by capcom in the first place. Lets look at that absurd meter building from palm strikes. Its absolutely ridiculous how fast yun can build meter, ntm how good his super is. Then we look at ssf4 guile, who got his sb meter building nerfed to basically nothing. Or look at Vanilla Gen, who also lost his meter building because “they were too unbalanced”. Yun was made purposely unbalanced; meanwhile Capcom and Ono try to tell us with a straight face that "your character got nerfed because _____ was too unbalanced :slight_smile: " Not saying Yun and co. are unbeatable, but there are some really bad matchups against the twins for certain chars. Ntm that everyone will resort to using only Yun and co, because frankly, they are quite easy to get wins with.

now another thing is when people compare yun to previous games or previous OP chars. first off these are different games. the whole purpose of AE was to introduce character balancing. so when Capcom, in this day and age of DLCs, again chooses to OP certain chars, it will obviously result in our outcry. Considering that those chars in previous games were in fact OP, shouldnt Capcom have learned this third time around? Comparing to previous games is a silly argument, the whole point of paying for another Capcom release was that they should have learned from their mistakes and given us what they said. A balanced SSF4. They didnt.

im also surprised fei hasnt been complained about as much. he was fine in super, dont know why he got buffed again. also imo, dislike the changes they made to Seth, he was fine before as well. capcom should concentrate on buffing the weaker chars, and actually addressing those problems.

When you say balance I suppose the characters are moderately close enough in different ways to be able to win. However I never liked the general game play, especially when it comes to charging, command grabs or safe moves. On another note SF4 characters have much less moves than any new gen 3D fighting game or MK9.

Yea, I agree with a lot of what you’ve just said, but disagree with some other things you’ve stated such as Twins are easy to win with.

And I wasn’t trying to directly compare AE-Yun, Vanilla-Sagat, and SSF4-Guile with each other. The comparison that I was trying to draw was Vanilla-Sagat relative to the rest of the Vanilla-SF4 case; SSF4-Guile relative to the rest of the SSF4-cast; and AE-Yun relative to the rest of the AE-cast. And when that comparison is analyzed, I still don’t think that AE-Yun compared with the rest of the AE-cast is as bad as Vanilla-Sagat compared to the rest of the Vanilla-SF4 cast; nor do I think that AE-Yun vs the rest of the AE-cast is as bad as SSF4-Guile vs the rest of the SSF4-cast.

I still “lol” when people claim that Yun requires a “fair amount of execution skills.” Really? Two-frame links are hard now? The overwhelming majority of GJ combos are easier than any CvS2 custom.

Posting random online footage, footage where Lamerboi Guile lost(sup Lamerboi, you’re still awesome), and footage of a tourney that Daigo used Ryu for the whole tourney only to use Guile against Feilong(since Guile does better in this matchup) in the grand finals, doesn’t support your argument. It makes your argument look weaker.

I’ll say it again, if Guile was so good in SSF4, where’s all the tournament footage of all these Guile’s winning. You won’t be able to find it cause it never happened. If you find one little bit of footage, it still wont make a difference because you would need LOTS of footage of LOTS of Guile’s winning tournaments to support the argument.

his argument revolves around online usage. Click link one in first post, page 2, he rants about Guile being way over powerd from his online experience.

Oh OK sorry. Well, since he’s talking about online I guess this discussion is over since online means zip, zero, zilch.

Yes, it was difficult to penetrate. And it still is. That’s the mainstay of Guile zoning. Only Guile’s slow SB was “instant recovery.” The others were easy to punish. I love that Guile’s backhand is an anti-projectile. But, hey, don’t throw a projectile when you’re within backhand range. The SB certainly wasn’t OP. Some bad players can’t penetrate it. But skilled players have little problem getting inside it. Look at the high level play for some good examples.

Thanks for the videos. But, people jumping into his ultra doesn’t make it OP. It sure was handy to be able to punish projectiles on reaction. Not sure that makes it OP. Ever jump into Ryu’s U2? Man, that sure could catch a whole lot of jump ins. Was it OP too? Lots of damage and easily catches jump-ins. Must be OP!

Really, just don’t jump into the ultra. Don’t do it. If you do and get caught, too bad for you. Definitely doesn’t make it OP, sir.

Sure I know he has a good footsie game. Fine footsies. Lots of ways to keep folks out and pressure them with sonic booms. Terrible cross-up defense. Want to defeat his footsies? Cross his ass up. That’ll put him on the defensive real quick. And, sorry to say, his cross-up defense just doesn’t cut it. Footsies or no.

Were you just beat to hell by Guile as a child? :slight_smile: I played Vanilla. And SSF4 Guile wasn’t even close to Vanilla-Sagat. Yeah, cause once Guile gets on you he can do incredibly rapid crouching light kicks and hit confirm into crazy damage combos. Oh, and he can juggle you into an amazing damage ultra too! I really wonder if you know what you’re talking about here. Vanilla Sagat was way worse than SSF4 Guile.

That’s true. But Sagat sure could tiger uppercut him on reaction. Or tiger knee him. Or simply standing round house him.

You seem fixated on the recovery of the slow SB. I tell you, it’s a simple matter for most of the cast to get in on that. They just can’t be stupid about it. Bad players that can’t handle zoning will be owned trying to get in. And it’s not the light SB that did it. Sure, boom pressure makes the zone-ee anxious to jump. Then the real fun begins. Airthrows. Guile high kicks. Booms. Standing mediums kicks. Standing medium punches. Dash-forward crouching heavy punch. Mmmm. Mmmmm. Guile sure can keep em out.

Lamerboi lost that match. Daigo did an amazing job punishing him. Great reads. I see nothing OP about that match. Gee, I didn’t hear the commentators say “unbalanced”. Just that he has an amazing ability to build meter.

There are several ultras that counter Guile’s U2. Sagat’s U2 beats it because it has more hits. Guile eats some hits and gets knocked down. Chun-li’s U2 also beats it. Not sure its ability to counter fireballs and do damage makes it OP. Consider the number of ways other characters can land their ultras. Rufus, Chun, Sagat, Ryy, Ken, etc. It seems perfectly fair that Guile can counter a fireball on reaction.

So what?

I’ve read your text. I’ve watched your videos. I remain unconvinced. How many hours of actual playtime have you put into Guile? Tell me first hand the situations that you can “pwn” with easily that don’t require the opponent doing something foolish. Please?

So, Guile is more balanced now because:
[LIST=1]
[]Nerfed air throw range.
[
]Nerfed backhand damage.
[]Reduced start-up time for U2.
[
]Reduced damage for U2.
[]Bigger counter hit window for slow sonic boom.
[
]Reduced FK damage.
[/LIST]
Hmm. Not sure I’m seeing the case there. And, why not speak to the points that Yun / Yang are overpowered?

And, what of Gilley’s comment that Guile simply doesn’t win tournaments?