Is there a double-standard in tournament play?


#1

I’ve never been to a fighting game tournament, so my question really stems from curiosity tainted with a little ignorance.

The object of tournaments are to gain victory over the rest of the participants. This often involves, not just a player’s skill, but a player’s choice of characters. My dilema is this: why is it that in certain games characters are banned, while in others it is considered suicide to choose anything less than proven “top-tier” characters?

I’m not trying to rock the boat by any means. I am in NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM a tourney-worthy competitor. But when I watch tournament clips of, say, MvC 2 matches, it appears to me that Magneto, Sentinel, Storm, Captain Commando, Psylocke, & Cable have glaring advantages over the rest of the other 50 characters. Why are they (and whoever else I missed) not banned? (Sure, I see other characters get used, but from what I’ve seen, they’re used in exhibition matches. Most winning teams consist of at least 2 of the aforementioned characters)

On the other side of the coin, you have CvS 2. I haven’t seen many matches, but off the top of my head, I seem to recall that God Rugal and Shin Akuma are banned from tournament play. I assume that they (as well as any other character I may have failed to mention) might have glaring advantages over the rest of the 40 or so characters. But if a player has the skill level to compete against those aforementioned characters, why should those ‘boss’ characters be banned?

I don’t know what other games the preceding examples may fall into, but for a while, I wondered about this double-standard (for lack of a better phrase) for certain characters/tactics in certain games.

Someone please explain…


#2

I think that God Rugal and Shin-Akuma are banned in tournaments because they are not selectable in the arcades, and are only selectable in the console version of the game.


#3

Yeah… the only characters that are banned are console-only (cvs2 bosses and guilty gear’s kliff/justice/EX/gold/etc, 3S gill etc etc) and ST Akuma(because OG ST tournament-organizers are scrubs*).

*kidding- there was that conversation in the evo part of the forums, where a couple of respected ST people concluded that ‘well, maybe he really isn’t game-breaking (though, he does have some free matchups and makes the game retarded-- but that also applies to our mvc2 top-tier :arazz:), but it’s how it’s always been and making people learn that matchup in 2 months is unfair.’

i wouldn’t go judging things as “double-standards”, but some of the rules do seem pretty f’ing arbitrary.


#4

Cable has a shitload of cheap moves.

I’m not tourney-worthy either, but I guess if anyone is able to use him, then it’s no big deal. It’s either everyone can, or no one can.

That being said, if I ever end up in an MvC2 tournament where I’m literally playing for my life…you better believe I’m taking Cable.


#5

You better learn to block.

To add something constructive, I think this arguement will get more and more prevalent as time goes on. Arcades are becoming less and less the norm and consoles are taking over for tournaments in the US. In many cases the tradition of adhering to the arcade standard is the only reason some things are banned. A friend of mine recently questioned the banning of boss characters in GGXX/; supposedly Justice sucks donkey shit (dunno about Kliff) and has no reason to be banned other than the arcade standard.

Then look at the PS2 port of KOFXI coming out soon. The console mode adds several characters as usual, but also adds balance changes. A promotion showed a demo of Duck King’s super throw having less range…this isn’t even something that has been complained about at all, so I’m going on assumption that they made significant changes to move properties, damage, etc. This is not a simple ‘remove RC’ or ‘remove unblockables’ or what have you; it seems to be they actually made well thought out balance changes (though we’ll see for real when the game is released)…a version B if you will. It’s going past the point of “not the same as arcade” to “an upgrade/new version of the original”. Should we adhere to this standard that Japanese arcade hold or make our own standard? If ports continue to advance in this way and seperate themselves from the original, but have no arcade presence, it could be a tough decision to make.


#6

cable is not good against mag storm.

mag is not good against sent.

sent is not good against cable.

its a circle of counter picking, so they can all be beat. so no one is banned


#7

It’s really about teams

Here’s the triangle

Sent/Storm/ Cap

Mag/ Storm / Sent

Mag / Storm / Psy

Anything after this is just a bonus which makes you even better

Not talking Sanford and Justin here

Guys like Yipes, Chunk , Wigfall and others who have serious Magz , Storms and Sentinels

So they play the above teams on the regular

And then you have guys like Potter , Row , who have good cables too so that adds Storm/Sent/cable Mag/cable/sent and team scrub

So now you have 6 teams

Throw in guys like CF, Demon Hyo, who play Iron man and Matrix who plays Cyke you have Mag/Im/ sent Storm/sent/Cyke thats Eight REALLY AFFECTIVE TEAMS
that can mix it up

Then throw in the random teams that might score a win

Mag/Sent/Cap MS/Cap MS/Tron

Then you have people that can win with just freakish teams

Bill - M/S/S drones
Duc - Spiral teams
Kai, Clock - Strider teams
Vegita X - Rogue/storm/tron !

And a couple guys in socal who play Ironman on point!

That makes for very well rounded tournaments even though you see alot of the same characters. It’s a team game and a team of MSS -a compared to mss drones differ DRASTICALLY! But from someone who doesn’t play marvel or w/e it just looks like a mirror match. Capcom didn’t do any of this on purpose but they made an incredible game even if it does only use 10 or so characters.

I GIVE EM PROPS!


#8

I always thought this was an excellent reason, until Evo organisers started saying that Macros (i.e. having one key set to 3P, 3K, Roll etc) will be allowed at Evo… Because Console Allows It. Because It Is In The Game.

Good shit Evo organisers, why can’t I use God Rugal? Prove he is as broken as ST Akuma, or let me use him. After all, He Is In The Game.


#9

Ugh, that’s just a terrible idea for so many reasons.


#10

evo organizers allow macros this year in tourney? link to rules please.


#11

http://www.evo2k.com/playerGuide/gamerules.php

It’s under the General Rules section.


#12

For lazy people:


#13

Is there going to be a new tournament to replace Evo and represent America’s best or is that it?


#14

wowowow, thats crazy. 1 button dash in marvel, off the chain.

people running mvc2 tourney are probably going to get alot of complaints when physco 1 button rush down starts happening, and i hope they dont change the rules the day of.


#15

There really is no 100% garunteed criteria for anything, you can say arcades are the standard, but most of the community is supported by console play so it would be kind of silly to make it a hard-line rule.

Most of the time what’s in the game is also a rule, but there are also times when what’s in the game is dumb and it’s worse for the tournament to allow it because of a rule technicality.

The people in charge just have to lay everything out and decide what to go with, then move on unless there’s a strong reason to reconsider.

In one case you have ‘the game’, and the feeling is that a banned character would nullify the rest of the game, for instance ST with akuma is not the same ST at all. To be honest some players would rather go from ST to AE (where akuma is banned in both), than from ST without akuma to ST with akuma.

In your mvc2 scenario, your banning what is considered to be ‘the game’, and moving to a new game that frankly, noone cares about, and you have no idea if it’ll be better, worse, or anything about it. Same thing as the ST example, most players would rather go from MvC2 to XSF, than to go from MvC2 to MvC2 without the top tier.


#16

Do tournaments ban the use of secret characters in arcade fighters? I mean, not all of them are overpowered…

I read in one post that some people use macros (setting a key to act as a simultaneous button press). This adds yet another dynamic to a player’s tools for victory. I know that in SSF2T you can connect a fierce from a light punch by pressing :lk: and :hp: simultaneously. This means for me that I have to use my thumb and pinky finger to accomplish. But with the use of macros, I can simply map those two buttons to the :hp: , right? Standard arcade controllers don’t have this, so I can only assume that players bring their own controllers. Effective, but how is having macros different from having hardware assisted tools?


#17

By that rationale, how far away are Easy-Operation style charge moves? That’s a pretty fair bit of hyperbole, but not entirely unfounded. It IS in the game.

I personally am completely against macros, it makes some things feel WAY too easy. Single button roman-cancelling in Guilty Gear is pretty broken, and hell, I’m almost tempted to smuggle in a button with automatic kara-palming (LOTS easier to do than one might think).

I can see how it would streamline a lot of problems with having to redo configs on the fly (if they’re already in the default setup, why remove them?) but it’s a very slippery slope.

N


#18

i say no macros, but if they allowed in mvc2, i will bet on 2 of my friends that play on ps2 pad that uses macros all day.


#19

Sometimes, in ST they are, in MvC2 they are not, see above.

The main difference is that with macros, people pretty much know what it will mean, and most of the situations are comparable to playing the game without macros. My prediction is that most people trying to use macros will end up messing up anyway and running into moves, if they prove that wrong, still nothing to write home about IMO.

With hardware assistance you go way beyond what macros will do, while macros basically just sub in 2 or 3 buttons for one, a hardware device can increase execution beyond practical limits, and introduce completely different tactics that make the game so unbalanced that you will not win at all if you don’t build some super joystick.

Even if you took the scare-tactic overdramatized SRK version of the macro problem as reality, it wouldn’t come close to a joystick that can do anything you want.

That’s still close enough to unfounded for me.

It’s only slippery if you actually accept any argument on the internet as valid, and let it override your common sense and reasoning ability.

IMO if all that keeps them from being champs is pressing two buttons instead of one, MvC2 is a silly game that should never be in tournaments to begin with. I think they will find that there is a lot more to winning than macro tricks.


#20

I also argued vehemently for Guardian Heroes at Evo, you’ll remember. I’m not exactly a bastion of reason allatime.

N