Is wake up just too random at top level play?


#1

I was thinking about it, when a player gets a knockdown on the opponent, he will usually try and throw out a few fakes in order to attempt to try and confuse the opponent who is about to get up into hesitating and allowing a opening. But assuming the player is good, this little dance shouldn’t affect them too much and they would stay focused on the exact moment they are able to input commands.

Exactly what can you depend on when you are playing at the top levels and the players are mixing up and being random as possible? If the player was being predictable then he wouldn’t be playing at the top level.

Would then the game just degenerate once someone was thrown to the floor into a Russian Roulette match?

I mean people say its deep but the amount of options available is just so many, especially in a game that requires randomness just in order to play at intermediate level.

Any thoughts?


#2

Um…I think when someone is knocked down, the options like you said are very plentiful. But for some reason, people stick to only a very few. And I guess if there is pressure during the game, the options are lessened even more? So my point is, sometimes randomness doesnt occur as much as the player wanted to.


#3

wouldnt the overall goal of corner pressure while u knock down your opponent is to make them come out with a wake up move or kara throw because u r over them?


#4

I dont get what you mean EVERDRED. Could you please rephrase?


#5

ok sorry i think once u knock down your opponent especially in the corner u would want them to think its safe to wake up and dp or throw u. thats what i’m trying to do now i guess. this is a mind game played throughout the course of the match tho.

first time u knock them down they block crouching u then crouching short and throw them

second time they might try and tech the throw so then u just throw them on wake up

third time u can fake going for a throw and then back off and let them whiff it and then counter them

fourth time (there probably wont be a forth time) they’ll wake up and dp.

but thats just an example it might not actually happen that way but the main point is the fallen opponent is at a really big disadvantage cus of the many options they can fall for.


#6

First of all, how would you know they are going to crouching block? When the person is waking up, since he is invincible until the first reversal attempt, you cannot know what he will do. And you being the aggressor has to mask his own true intentions with dashing in and out and dancing around, whiffing pokes and basically just doing random shit since basically you have your plan of attack ready to go once he is vunerable.

I really don’t see anything more than Paper Scissor Rock on wakeup.

The person getting up has just as many options as you do, even moving around or jumping, if you decide to delay your attack in order to throw off parry attempts.


#7

So in effect, neither character has a greater disadvantage?

One thing I would like to ask…when can a character getting up execute a SA? Take for example, Ryu’s SA1 and Chun-Li’s SA2. Is there any time difference?


#8

person on the ground is at a GREAT disadvantage, more so than probably any other fighting game. heck thats why ken is so beastly half his damage comes from wake up pressure alone.

sure they have the option to jump but where does that get them? in the air in a corner. if they jump over u whats to stop u from hitting them with something. the main advantage of being over someone like that is that they have to react to u, not u react to them.


#9

psh. buffer super motion REALLY OBVIOUSLY to make them block, then walk up throw. \o/ snickers :clap: :clap: :clap:


#10

Jumping was just an example, but what is this wake up pressure you are talking about? If he guesses right then he doesn’t have to worry about squat. The pressure dissapears immediately and the beastly Ken is now on his back with possibly 50% of his life gone. That is what I meant as the wake up game is random at Top levels.


#11

if you got hit by Ken’s low forward xx SA3 and not his strong fierce xx SA3, it’s not because you didn’t “predict” your opponent’s move. imho players become more predictable (the set of viable options becomes smaller) as the level of play rises (precisely because sub-optimal options are weeded out).

the little dance is to ensure that it remains rock-paper-scissors. if i just sat there and threw a meaty low short at the last second, he’ll probably parry it; if i danced a bit, my intentions become less obvious (more subject to guesswork than observation+reflex).


#12

But how often at top level is cr. FK > SA3 and st. SP, FP > SA3 used on wakeup? I’ve seen more UOH or OH, or cr. SK x3 into SA3 than the others during the wakeup game.

But I disagree with your opinion that the options would become less as the level of play rises. Since most of the players would be very good parriers, I would expect things would wouldn’t see at lower levels of play in order to avoid predictability, whiffs, quick ducking, even half second or full second pauses. as well as the usual dancing, dashing, poking into throws, whiff into throw, poke into dash into throw, poke into dash into poke into dash-back into cr. FK > SA.

The more unsure and hesitant you make the opponent, the better it is for you so I would expect most players to just out-confuse each other in order to gain just a mental initative.


#13

the reason people on wake ups dont have as many options as you do is because the person standing can do meaty attacks. meaning your normals >>>> their normals/throws ALWAYS. so you pretty much cut out all their normal attacks+their throws, all they have left offensively is parry (risky), special attacks (risky)or super (some are safe). the best thing they could probably do is block low and try to react to whatever. eating a throw isnt so bad but against characters like shotos thats just a guessing game again, and in the corner youre right back to square one. and if you can bait out their tech throw you can punish them severly with just about any character. the person on the ground takes many risks in what theyre doing.


#14

But didn’t you just say in your first post top level players were “unpredictable”? Obviously pressure would come into play when you’re forced to guess something that’s “unpredictable”, wouldn’t it?

You’re assuming the “little dance” the attacker does is random, but it’s not. It’s there to confuse you and subtly trick you into reacting in a given way -most players always react the same way to certain situations without even realizing it. The “little dance” is there to pressure you into relying on your instincts (“oh, I think I know what he’s gonna do next!”) and doing rash things (“how did he guess? Psychic powers!”). Sometimes it’s also there to scare you into blocking. It’s there to make you think you can read your opponent’s patterns, when in fact you cannot.

You should also take into account the risk/reward ratio when analyzing wake-up situations. The reason the person on the ground is at a great disadvantage is because he’s reacting, and people tend to become predictable in that situation. Not only does he have fewer options that the person attacking but he is also forced to adapt to the opponent’s rythm and mind games. The person on the ground is literally forced to adapt, while the person attacking doesn’t HAVE to attack: he has gained the right to dictate the flow of the game (“momentum”) by obtaining a knockdown.

The person on the ground grossly has the following options:

  1. Block - Low risk, low reward
  2. Tech throw/Anti-throw hit/Jump/Dash - mid risk, mid reward
  3. Reversal - high risk, high reward*
  4. Parry - very high risk, very high reward
  • Character and situation-dependant.

Note: if the person attacking decides to delay his attack to beat parries and the person getting up just sits there blocking, then they’ve already “guessed right”, so it’s only fair the situation is resetted. That does not mean the person on the ground has no disadvantage.

At low and intermediate levels when tech throw and parry attempts aren’t punished and meaty timings aren’t consistent, it sometimes looks like the person on the ground isn’t at a great disadvantage. But the higher the level, the riskier all these options become because the players are able to create a complex offense. In fact, the odds are heavily stacked against the person on the ground. So if the person on the ground manages to “guess right” then by all means he DESERVES to get rid of the pressure! Any offense that can be beat by randomness alone isn’t “solid” or “high-level”.


#15

Meaty Taunt (with Urien).
Dudley and Sean doesn’t count.

…Twelve does a taunt right after takedown.
That random enough for ya?


#16

Yes and pressure would be going the other way as well, the player waiting for the wakeup is also under the same type of pressure, if he also guesses wrong then he is in trouble.


#17

i guess i wasn’t clear. just think of the Daigo vs JWong parry exhibition; would walking up with Chun and doing an axe kick have been an option? if you agree that it would’ve gotten him killed, then you probably already know what i mean.


#18

Muskau: No, because the defending player’s options are much more limited and predictable. The attacking player isn’t guessing because he’s in control --the defending player is the one who is forced to react.


#19

I don’t know, people sometimes fall for simple walk ups from sweep distance into throw.

I’m just having trouble understanding.

BillyKane: Exactly why is he in control? The only thing I see him in control of is attempting to mislead and confuse the opponent who is about to get up, hoping that this will cause the player to react, or not react in a certain way. Is this what you are talking about?


#20

i dont know whats hard to understand about a guy who is free to move and meaty and do whatever having more control than the guy who is getting up?