Item Rankings - a tournament standards discussion


#1

So, after all the countless debate, I’ve been thinking about the idea of items and tournament standards. The way I see it (as do most pro-items players), there’s a clear definition of item strength. How valuable they are before, during, and after their usage. There’s also a noticeable difference in how viable one fighting against an item is. I figured a way to solve the dispute over it all would be to come up with a ranking system (almost like a tier list, if you will) that would simplify the whole matter entirely. Something that could be agreed on. From there, a simple matter of deciding what rank of items would be allowed in, and go from there. I present you an idea of what I figured would be an applicable ranking system for tournaments (w/ Rank 5 being all-Brawl, Rank 0 being no items) as a whole, and I’d like to see some input on where an agreement would lie on this kind of list.

Rank 5
Maxim Tomato, Heart Container, Starman, Superspicy Curry

Rank 4
Assist Trophy, Pokeball, Containers, Timer, Lightning, Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Fan, Franklin Badge, Soccer Ball, Bob-omb, Gooey Bomb, Smart Bomb, Deku Nut

Rank 3
Smash Ball, Dragoon, Ray Gun, Pitfall, Fire Flower, Cracker Launcher, Motion-Sensor Bomb, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Team Healer, Bumper, Blast Box

Rank 2
Sandbag, Food, Screw Attack, Warp Star, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Beam Sword, Baseball Bat, Lip’s Stick, Star Rod, Hothead

Rank 1
Banana Peel, Unira, Spring, Mr. Saturn, Green Shell, Smoke Ball, Freezie, Super Scope

Personally, with this system, my personal criteria for a tournament I’d organize would probably fall on either rank 2 or 3. Some people may be fine with up to rank 4, others might be satisfied with rank 1. Think of it as a meter. Running a rank 3 items tournament would include ranks 1-3 of items. From here, I ask of you where you feel these items truly belong in their lists. I would like some input so we can set a standard.


Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan
Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan
Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan
Super Smash Bros. General - Patience and Spacing....or Whine and Moan
#2

Neat Idea, I guess. I’d make the following changes:

Maxim to Rank 5
Blast Box and Containers to Rank 3
Franklin Badge to Rank 3
Screw Attack to Rank 3
Baseball Bat to Rank 3

Under these conditions, I’d be cool with a Rank 4 tourny in place of all brawl (all stages stay, though)… But im really not convinced SuperSpicy Curry is that totally deadly that it should be rank 5.


#3

i’m down for all, some, or none. that basically how i play anyways. i got a bunch of friends who play all styles. each game is diverse, and everyones good enough so that the person who usually wins is the won who deserved it more.


if this was for evo, we really have 3 months. i would want to suggest something in the mean time.

every morning, a poll should be put up.

this poll should regard a single items inclusion into evo.

now, my previous issue with item polls is that they were all or nothing. but of course, once applied, we know there’s trouble issues.


if we were to start getting rid of items, it would have to be on an item by item basis.

each item gets its own spotlight, and lets really just see what people’s opinions are.

each poll should list the item and the following choices:

  1. The items is balanced and not overpowering; should be included in evo
  2. The item is useless and not overpowering; should be included in evo
  3. The item is overpowering; should NOT be included in evo
  4. The item is useless but gameplay hindering; should NOT be in included in evo
  5. No items at evo whatsoever.

the rules to this thread are that if 3 or 4 are selected by someone, they must give reasoning as to why. overall votes won’t win a majority, but it would present a solid case for each item individually.

5 is there, despite what i said earlier, but for a reason. it keeps the vote and opinions from being skewed. if someone votes 5, we understand thier agenda. if they vote no on 3-4, they must back up thier claim with words.

if you vote 1-2, it should be taken that there is an active gameplay and defense to that item.

5 should seriously be taken under consideration if indeed, but it is not a popularity pole where we pit items against the no-item agenda. i’d hope people bring more proof to the table than an absolute “no” ban hammer, but it shouldn’t be taken as a stat to be ignored either.


and “random” cannot be a legitimate gripe with a weapon.


#4

Voting on the internet is always a bad idea.

Lets stick to proving it rather than having people state a preference.


#5

I was thinking this of a usage completely outside EVO. Just as a general standard for tournaments. A simplification, if you will.

As far as certain items go in the way I had suggested, my only reasoning on maxims in 4 were that 50% isn’t as much as 100%. The heart shares identical properties, but the magnitude is different. I don’t see 50% making as much of an impact as 100%, though I personally would rather not include rank 4 in a tournament I organized anyway.


#6

i agree with spicy curry being rank 5. honestly its very similar to robs final smash save for the fact that it doesn’t smash people out. the fact that rob has to fight for a smashball to get an effect that is very very similar to a standard item warrants it being in rank 5 imo


#7

I think you should reverse the rank orders and then give each player (or the losing player of the first set) an allotment of “turn-off points” (say 10), where the players can then choose which items they don’t want want on (like two level 5s or ten level 1s or any combination).


#8

These types of ideas are getting out of hand. Just how long do you want these tournaments to take? All this ‘striking out’ of stages and items are just time wasters and more excuses not to be able to deal with parts of the game. :mad:


#9

Yeah lets just keep this thread focused on the rankings and not so much ideas on extra things to do with them in a tourney.

I say maxim to 5, super scope to 2, hothead to 3, dragoon to 4.

Maybe consider green shell at 2, lip’s stick at 1, baseball bat at 3, and some kind of special note on the team healer.

Love this idea, though. I think it’s a great one.


#10

It takes seconds to toggle items on/off. Come on, man, you should know this.

You should also know that I pretty much agree with your stance on these things 100% but realize that compromises will have to be made before the players on both sides end up killing one another.


#11

spicy curry is pretty fucking bad.

defending it is pretty much like see how little damage you can take.

the curry operates by cycling through 5 trajectories swinging up and down. you can get all the hits to connect by being really close.

so if you get caught with it standing, you’re boned. all the person needs to do is fox trot continuous until you reach the end of the stage, and watch you fumble to get back on.

this sucks pretty bad on walk of stages.

or just before you reach the end you can roll through and reset. what’s the worst that can happen in that exchange? you don’t get enough free damage?

well, yeah, if you’re standing, you can block it. but if you do that they can grab, and tick you until it lets go, and get the foxtrot combo off anyways.

there are some defenses mind you, its really that most characters aren’t able to. reversals work fine, reflectors basically make you 100% safe from anything they can do, outside of certain long reach items

i’m definately bot a huge fan of curry. its not very cohesive to any gameplay outside of “go ape shit”

keits: the poll is basically an indication of who’s actually willing to test items. if a majority vote 5, well, we know who those people are, and they won’t skew any results. for an item ban, there should be an explanation, and sound reasoning. anything else should be considered a fair item. the actually numbers of 3-4 won’t weigh as heavily as the actual cases being presented, but you have to admit that its a much better way of going about things than one general item thread where everyone believe getting a beam sword is like being given a free ride to the finals.


#12

fan is rank 6. Of all the items I’d much rather have a fan.


#13

Fan should be 5. I ran some item-on tournaments and the Fan was WAY overpowered, worse than someone getting any item in rank 5 (though I didn’t have those on anyway, but still). It’s a free 100% at least, and is a wall infinite. Start whacking someone with that and it’s almost guarentee’d KO from all the damage. And you can’t really DI out of it (degenerating attack/knockback).

What about smashballs? They are “items” correct? Or do you guys consider that separate from other items?

I love the idea, but I think rank 1 should include 3 items at the most. Considering rank 1 tournaments would be the “most acceptable items” it should be very limited. I’d say Smoke Ball, Banana Peel, Mr. Saturn.

Lastly, there should be 7 ranks, with rank 7 being anything that explodes (and thus could kill you instantly when it spawns) and rank 6 being just the most powerful stuff.


#14

the fan has counters.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152428

you can get out of some people’s fans, some you can’t.

fan is definately scary, but its only scary in a few people’s hands.


#15

As of now, I’m seeing rank 2 or 3 being the middle-ground option in terms of acceptance. Rank 1 I only see the most conservative areas of item acceptance. Basically, the junk-to-meh items, whereas rank 4/5 being the most liberal of items usage. If I were to expand it at all, it’d be to 6, to split up rank 4 a bit, but then again, I think 5 is a bit much. Only reason I did that was I felt there was enough of a difference between what is now 2 and 3. I think if I were to merge those two, items like the hammers and would get a bump up a rank, while most of 2 would end up in 1. Seemed like the most logical at the time, but I’m rambling. I guess that’s why I started this thread in the first place. To tweak this to the ideal.


#16

My take:

Rank 5
Maxim Tomato, Heart Container, Starman, Superspicy Curry, Timer, Lightning, Fan, Franklin Badge, Team Healer

Rank 4
Assist Trophy, Pokeball, Containers, Super Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Soccer Ball, Bob-omb, Gooey Bomb, Smart Bomb, Deku Nut, Pitfall, Fire Flower, Motion-Sensor Bomb, Blast Box

Rank 3
Ray Gun, Cracker Launcher, Hammer, Golden Hammer, Bumper, Warp Star

Rank 2
Sandbag, Screw Attack, Metal Box, Bunny Hood, Beam Sword, Baseball Bat, Lip’s Stick, Star Rod, Hothead, Super Scope, Freezie

Rank 1
Food, Banana Peel, Unira, Spring, Mr. Saturn, Green Shell, Smoke Ball

I didn’t place the smash ball or dragoon in any category because I think they should be separate and guaranteed, regardless of the rest of the rules. If I had to put them in a category, I guess I’d put them in Rank 2. They’re very strong, but there’s an active, strategic and sometimes very extended battle over who gets to use them and then when and how you use them.


#17

What is so bad about Soccer Ball?

Motion sensor bomb is totally avoidable (no?) and the Cracker Launcher is usually a disadvantage for the person holding it.

Also bumper is often a OHKO. It seems way more powerful than many of the other things on this list.


#18

The main problem with the soccer ball is that it can spawn on top of someone in the middle of their attack, possibly giving them a KO they didn’t deserve.

I also don’t see how the cracker launcher is often a disadvantage to the person holding it. Seems to me that if you’re at a disadvantage when you have it you either misused it or you were probably not in a good position when you picked it up in the first place.