I've never played Viper before, plz hlp

c-viper

#1

Title is pretty much self explanatory.

But yeah, I want to learn C. Viper, and any kind of advice, tactics, advanced tactics, ect. will be helpful. For some background:

The fighter I’m mostly good at and spend most of my time with, is Marvel. That being said however, I have spent a lot of time playing SSF but I am not nearly as familiar with the mechanics as I am in Marvel. In SSF I usually use Cammy or Dudley, so how hard of a changeover is it going to be going from a Cammy player to a Viper player? I’m well aware that she’s in all probability the hardest in terms of execution, so what are some things I can do to get used to her style? Does she play good footsies? What kind of game does she play? Ect ect.

All help will be appreciated. I’m sitting in the training room with her right now as I type this, so if anyone wants to get on and show me some tactics I’m down for that as well.

Thanks in advance, ya’ll.

EDIT: Doing her Trials; I can already tell where this is going…trial 7 is just L Punch into M Punch, and I can’t even do it. x_x


#2

instant cannon spike will help you learning burn kicks and i dont think shes the hardest character to learn in terms of execution, its just that messing up can really cost you. some tips fff is not inputed as fast as you would think, learn super jump cancel ultra early on; the easiest way to do it is two mildly fast hadoken motions both ending in up forward if you get super your doing it too fast if you get a super jump your doing it too slow. learn to feint all normals, seismo chains are also key its just a tiger knee motionwhen you see her fist hit the gound. lear a low sjc burnkick to help you get in and keep pressure. for a beginner i think thats all you should learn now once you learn all this comeback for more… on second thought after just fully reading your post you might wanna use a differen character to become familiar with the game before you move on to viper…


#3

If your execution is good with Cammy or Dudley (considering they have a few tough links, they have good mixups and pressure, and require decent execution), then going to Viper should be a little easier.

To get used to her style, you just have to be in training mode a lot, watch a lot of pro videos (Latif, Wolfkrone, Gridman) to get ideas on how to play her (honestly, no Vipers really play the same, so create your own style), and apply what you’ve learned in training mode and watching videos in real matches. It doesn’t matter if you can do fierce feint fierce 100% of the time in training mode, because if you mess it up in matches because you’re not trying to perform it live in a match almost every time you can, then you’re doing yourself no good. You have to learn to perform the hard stuff in ranked matches or casuals and deal with losing when you mess up, because if you care too much on winning pointless matches, then your skill will remain the same and you won’t get better.

Viper doesn’t play good footsies at all. Her normals are slow and have horrible hitboxes. If you’re going to punish a slow whiffed normal on reaction, practically your only options are strong tk and sometimes crouching fierce. Her only real decent normal for footsies is crouching fierce (you’ll see Latif do this a ton, usually with a small block string, walk back a step, crouching fierce into ex seismo, but this is honestly more of a frame-trap than footsies). Don’t try to play footsies with Viper outside of strong tk and crouching fierce, which aren’t super great footsie tools in comparison to everyone else’s footsies in the game. Her crouching forward isn’t too good for footsies, because her actual foot doesn’t have a hitbox, but it DOES have a hurtbox (meaning her foot can be hit by your opponent, but it can’t actually hit the opponent). The hitbox on her leg extends out to roughly her ankle, and again, it comes out very slow. Even if you successfully punish someone else’s whiffed crouching forward/roundhouse with Viper’s crouching forward, that’s all you get. If you try to combo into strong tk, it will usually whiff (which can promptly be punished by whatever the hell the opponent wants to do). If you happened to hit your opponent with a counterhit, you can combo into EX seismo. tl;dr: Strong tk, crouching fierce and crouching forward into EX seismo are all viper has, and all options aren’t very good to begin with.

The kind of game she plays is really just hard rushdown with brutal 50/50 mixups and just outright hard to block burnkicks. You can zone with seismo (but if you throw out a seismo at the wrong range and they jump in on you, you lose a third of your health to any character in the game), and her fierce tk anti-air is awesome. Her far roundhouse anti-air is a good anti-air if you space is properly, but the startup is a bit slow, so you need to time it good. You can really play Viper however you want, but she’s mostly just a rushdown character that makes any opponent’s wakeup a nightmare.

Her trials are the hardest, but they are fun :3.


#4

Very informative, thanks for typing that all out. I have the whole weekend to try and get this character to work for me. Should prove…challenging. x_x

Just to clarify on some things though…

  1. I don’t know very much SF jargon, and this may be a stupid question, but could you define feint, feint fierce, and strong? I hear these terms a lot and I’m not completely sure what they mean.

  2. Is burning kick cancelable like seismo?

3.Which Ultra is better in general? I usually use II (Can’t remember the name, it’s the one that requires a super jump first)

4.When playing against people with her, I notice I get jumped in on a lot and punished severely. What would be her closest move to an anti air? (Besides that one special she has which I can’t remember the name of, the command is QCB+Heavy Punch)


#5
  1. feint is the fake out for her Thunder Knuckle or Seismo. If you do the Seimo/TK input then quickly press 2 punches it will “feint” the move. Fient Fierce is half of a term, Fierce Feint Fierce, which is her BnB punish starter.

Fierce meaning crouching Fierce, you cancel that into a HP Thunder Knuckle then Feint that, then do another crouching Fierce.

And move notations are as such:


 LP    MP    HP
Jab Strong Fierce
 
 
  LK    MK      HK
Short Forward Roundhouse

  1. Seismo can be SJC’d, not necessarily cancelled in the traditional sense of the word. And no, you cannot SJC out of a burnkick.

  2. Ultra 1 is Viper’s go to ultra. Her Ultra 2 is next to useless. With Ultra 1, you can easily SJC into it off of her basic links, you can do meterless FADC later on down the road, you can juggle with it in the corner, you can do a traded HP TK or a non traded HP TK juggle into Ultra, etc. With Ultra 2 you either gotta wait til your opponent is unable to block or do a non-hit confirmable st.HP SJC Ultra, which is really pointless. I’ve very rarely seen anyone use her Ultra 2, it’s pretty bad.

  3. If you space it right she can use far st.HK, but for the most part her normal move anti airs are non existant. I’d stick to HP TK because you can combo into Ultra that way or get good damage.


#6

Excellent. Just one more thing:

Tk? What does that mean?


#7

Oh wait, Thunder Knuckle probably. Duh. Dx


#8

jab = light punch
strong = medium punch
fierce = hard punch
short = light kick
forward = medium kick
roundhouse = hard kick

so when I say “crouching forward”, that doesn’t mean holding down and right (if facing to the right), it means holding down and pressing medium kick, or “forward kick”, simply just “forward”.

Viper can cancel any of her seismos or thunder kunckles (tk) by doing the motion, then immediately pressing two or three punch buttons right after. This way, you can do a seismo, immediately press two punch buttons and cancel (or feint) it, and stop the seismo from happening any further. This can bait your opponent into jumping or throwing out a move, so you can punish it thereafter.

Fierce feint fierce is an advanced technique Viper has. Viper can combo two fierces together by doing a fierce, doing a fierce TK, canceling the fierce TK, and doing another crouching fierce. It’s just a super damaging tool she has to add another ~100 damage and good stun to her combos. You can find plenty of videos on this floating around on youtube.

  1. Cancelable as in, you can start it and then stop it before it fully comes out? No, but you can in Marvel. However, you can cancel a normal into a burn kick. In example, you can cancel practically any normal viper has into a burn kick. By cancel, it means basically canceling the recovery frames when it hits. Like Ryu doing a crouching forward into a fireball: the reason why it connects and becomes a two hit combo is that you do the fireball input while the crouching forward comes out, and if the crouching forward hits, most (if not all) of the recovery frames get canceled, and then the fireball comes out, therefore comboing.

If you were wondering, you can’t cancel a normal into a burnkick where it actually combos, possibly except EX burn kick. If you’re gonna spend an EX bar like that, it’s better to do EX seismo 100% of the time, since it leads to more damage and better opportunities thereafter.

  1. Ultra 1 is better since it’s more versatile and does more damage. There are so many more ways to land Ultra 1 successfully than Ultra 2. The only real downside to Ultra 1 is that if it whiffs, it’s basically the most punishable whiffed/blocked move in the entire game. I have seen some good Vipers use Ultra 2 sometimes, but there really isn’t any super good evidence that Ultra 2 is just outright better than Ultra 1 in any matchup, honestly. The easiest and best way to land Ultra 1 is if you hit your opponent with a burn kick in the corner, you can follow up with an Ultra 1 before they hit the ground. Ultra 1 is called Burst time, and Ultra 2 is called Burning Dance.

  2. If someone is jumping on top of your head, there is no anti-air for that except for a well-timed and VERY well-spaced close forward (or again, close medium kick). If you don’t time and space this well, you’ll either get counter-hit or trade hits. This is absolutely not easy to do and will just not work against certain characters and certain situations. It definitely will not work if you’re waking up (waking up is when you get knocked down, and you’re getting back up on your feet). This is because 99% of the time, your opponent will throw out a move that will hit on the very first or second frame of you actually being able to be hti when you wake up, so if you throw out a close forward like that, you’ll get counter-hit every single time. Honestly, if someone is jumping on top of your head, just block and deal with it. Everyone, especially Viper players, just want a normal move or special move that will get them out of every single situation, but this isn’t the case and people need to learn to block sometimes.

Also, if they aren’t close or right above your head when you time your forward kick, you’ll get a far standing forward kick, which is not the same. The close forward is a kick where she kicks right above her head. The far forward is a long horizontal kick that sucks and isn’t an anti-air at all. Again, I really wouldn’t advise trying it. If you can anti-air them with fierce TK (which is that QCB+fiere motion you mentioned), then yeah, do that. If they are too far to anti-air with fierce TK but still kinda close to landing in front of you, you can anti-air with a far standing roundhouse (she whips her heel out and does an axe-kickish move).


#9

sorry that I type novels on here, lol. Also, I didn’t see density’s post prior to my post, but oh well. The more the merrier I guess. :]


#10

Alright.

Also, what are her wakeup options?

Edit: By all means, the more information the better.


#11
  1. Block.
    Pros: Just a good safe option at all times.
    Cons: Only real risk is being thrown and dealing with high/low mixups.

  2. EX Seismo - She’s invincible for 13 frames. An easier way to look at it is that she is invincible the entire time she’s standing up, but when she starts heading towards the ground to punch it, she is no longer invincible.
    Pros: Long invincibility window, can punish with ultra if you hit them point blank, gets them off of you if you connect, safe on block to everything in the game maybe except Zangief’s jab SPD.
    Cons: Loses to throw, loses to anyone spamming something quick like jabs or shorts, loses to someone simply just jumping straight up on your wakeup, and it’s a 19 frame reversal (it takes 19 frames for it to hit someone, whereas Ryu’s dragon punch takes 3 frames).

  3. EX Burn Kick - She’s invincible for 8 frames, but doesn’t actually start hitting until the 9th frame, so this can get stuffed or trade by a well-timed move from your opponent. Pretty okay if you think they won’t be crouching. Not a bad move if you want to chip them to death and they are jumping in on you.
    Pros: Good “get off” me move or “get me out of the corner” move. No real reason to use it otherwise unless you’re going for chip while you’re under pressure.
    Cons: Painfully unsafe if blocked (-12 frames, which means any ultra in the game can punish you), and even more unsafe if you whiff it. The entire move will whiff if the opponent is crouching. Use this move rarely, because if you make the wrong read, you will lose half your health to anyone that recognizes how unsafe this move is.

  4. Fierce Thunder Knuckle - Viper’s “dragon punch”. Viper is invincible for 6 frames, which is the entire startup of the move all the way to the first active frame. The only way this will ever lose to another move is if someone else does an invincible move right when the first active frame of Viper’s tk happens (or losing to moves that are strike invincible, such as Abel’s EX Tornado Throw). However, it is worth to note that just because it won’t outright lose to other moves (other than the situations I stated), fierce tk can trade hits with whatever your opponent throws out.
    Pros: Pretty decent invincibility window, awesome “get off me” move. Beats the crap out of people who are throw-happy or spam too many normals recklessly.
    Cons: Fairly slow for a reversal “dragon punch”, considering most reversal dragon punches are 3-5 frames, whereas Viper’s is 7. Can trade, and HORRIBLY unsafe if blocked (-22 frames) or whiffed, so make sure to FADC and backdash to ensure safety (unless you whiff, then you’re screwed). A lot of characters can do a well-spaced low attack (like Ryu, Ken, and Akuma’s crouching forward kick) which will not be hit by Viper’s fierce TK. So really, they can do this for free, and the only thing Viper can really do about this is block, possibly EX seismo, and (at much more of a risk) Ultra 1.

  5. Fierce Thunder Knuckle feint - This is hard. Doing a raw fierce tk feint requires INCREDIBLY quick inputs, and can be super costly if you mess up.
    Pros: Invincible for a few frames. Can make throws whiff, can make certain jump-ins whiff, and also can make certain poorly timed quick normals whiff.
    Cons: Pretty hard to do consistently, requires incredibly fast fingers. If you mess up the input, you’ll either get a fierce TK (which can lead to bad things for you), a whiffed fierce normal (which will surely get you counter-hit), or an EX TK (which sucks so hard that you’ll get counter-hit by anything ever). Just don’t do this if you’re not absolutely comfortable doing it with 100% confidence of having the quick fingers to do it. This is a super advanced technique, so don’t hit yourself in the head for not being able to do it.

  6. EX Seismo feint
    Pros: Invincible for just about as many frames as a regular EX seismo, makes jump-ins whiff and other poorly timed normals whiff. The practical use of this is mostly just to make jump-ins whiff.
    Cons: If you’re using this as a practical use of making jump-ins whiff, this loses to empty jump-ins into whatever the opponent wants to do mostly (throw, dp, quick combos).

  7. Wake-up throw
    Pros: Techs or throws anyone close enough as long they aren’t already attacking you the frame you wake-up.
    Cons: Basically if someone is attacking you right as you wake up, this will likely lose unless they mistime their attack. If you whiff, most people will have decent enough reactions to punish with a sweep or something.

  8. Backdash
    Pros: The invincibility on backdash is pretty decent to make some normals whiff, and it can also get you out of some pressure.
    Cons: If someone option selects you or just reads you doing a backdash by forward dashing right onto you, you’re screwed and back in the same situation you just tried to escape. You can eat some nasty damage if people read your backdash correctly.

If you don’t know what option selects are:
"*When a player inputs multiple possible options at the same time, and the computer automatically selects the appropiate one according to the situation. As an extremely basic example, in Super Turbo, you attempt to throw your rival with Medium Punch. If you are within throw range, a throw will come out, otherwise a Medium Punch will come out. *
Advanced option selects are used to reduce the risk of getting punished if your initial option fails. An example of this would be Honda’s Auto Mix-up in Super Turbo. Basically, you do something, and if that something fails, another useful move comes out in its place, reducing (or eliminating, in some cases) the risk of geting punished for it."

  1. Wake-up Ultra 1 - Had to put it here because technically it is a wake-up option, but the worst one you could possibly do.
    Pros: If it hits, awesome!
    Cons: Basically the most unsafe blocked/whiffed move in the game. Literally every other option is a better idea than doing this 99.9999% of the time (unless you’re going to get chipped to death in super specific situations and you’re out of EX meter, which likely won’t even work anyway). It’s a waste of a good opportunity, because since you need to suffer at least half damage (with the exception of eating attacks with a focus), you’ll lose the round or be left with like 5% health. It’s also a waste of a good opportunity because it isn’t difficult for Viper to land her Ultra 1, so you shouldn’t throw away almost guaranteed damage later in the round.

Viper’s wakeup options aren’t that great, but they are better than some characters.


#12

Alright. This is all very helpful.

I’m having a lot of fun with her, even though I’m not winning very many fights. All this info though is helping me identify my mistakes with her. She doesn’t satisfy my combo-craving like Dudley might, but she’s very tactile and it feels good to take more time in executing your strategy rather than some of the more rambunctious characters. It also seems like a lot of her strategy relies on good chip damage as well.

As for her feints, it’s taking me a little while to pull them off consistently, nonetheless use them to a more advanced extent. I have a 6 button stick so for now it just seems easier to press my all punch button rather than two such as LP and MP or MP and HP.

All in good time though. :smiley:


#13

You’ll lose a lot at first, but it’s necessary to go through the rough stuff in order to start winning.

It’s worth quickly mentioning that her simple bread and butter combos are cr. :mp: into :mp: tk, and cr. :mk: into :mk: tk. She has a few more bnb combos but those are good enough to start with. It’s basically the equivalent of Cammy’s cr. :mk: into spiral arrow, since you played Cammy and all :3.


#14

Doesn’t HP TK only have 6 frames of invincibility? Which is why it often trades (which is a good thing imo).


#15

Just uploaded this awesome match I had with some dude. One round ended in a draw. If anyone watches, care to critique my playstyle? Tell me how I’m doing with her? :smiley: Qualities kinda bad because I don’t have my capture card set up, but I manage to hold the camera pretty still.
[media=youtube]rvS-Cy57n34[/media]


#16

My mistake, you’re right. It’s invincible for the first 6 frames, and then hits on the 7th frame, so I got mixed up haha.


#17

It’s kinda laggy for watching videos at my work, but from what I saw:

  1. Don’t use EX thunder knuckle. It sucks unless you have specific situations where you know it works.

  2. Use crouching :mk: into :mp: thunder knuckle as a combo more. It’s good pressure and good damage.

  3. Use close standing :mp: and crouching :mp: for pokes and such, as it’s usually better for pressure than crouching light kicks, and you can combo into a :mp: thunder knuckle.

I"ll update more on this later. :]


#18

The only time I use EX TK is when I think I have an opening, because then it opens them up for a burn kick. Otherwise however, I’ll try the other advice out as well.


#19

I really advise against using EX TK at all unless you have certain situations where you have it set up to work (mostly if you option selected a teleport or something). Every once in a while I use it for the hell of it or simply because I’m not taking anything seriously, but that’s about it. If you land it, then cool, you get a crumple to do whatever you want (and for the record, you seriously have like a 1% chance of landing it because the opponent is sleeping or stupid. Otherwise, you will only land it if you predict teleports or punish moves with poor recovery from far away, which you can usually just super jump instead). If they block it, then it blows because it takes you longer to recover than they do (I don’t think anything can really punish you for it if they block it, maybe except a Zangief jab spd), and now your plan of “getting in” becomes foiled because they can simply jump away for free or do whatever they please. It’s better to slowly walk your way in or do a burnkick to get yourself in.

tl;dr: your meter can be spent better than EX TK. It’s a really, really bad move. Don’t feel obligated to “get in”. Yeah, Viper is rushdown, but not rushdown every single second of the round.


#20

Do you wanna play a few matches?