JCs (jump cancel) for throw invincibility


#1

magus1234 posted this up the other night on twitter and i saw a few people didn’t understand what was going on, so here is an explanation in more than 140 characters.

what’s going on:

the training dummy is programmed to meaty throw mika on the first possible frame after she gets up from the first knockdown. mika is attempting to do EX butt, which would normally lose to the meaty throw as throws go through the armor on EX butt. instead, mika jumps for 1-2 frames to avoid the throw, then cancels the pre-jump frames into EX butt, punishing the meaty throw attempt.

how this works:

when you jump in a fighting game, your jump first has a few pre-jump frames where you are considered airborne, but can still do grounded special moves. this makes it possible to do zangief’s 360 and similar motions without jumping, even though the motion has an up in it.

this piece of tech utilizes the airborne state of your pre-jump frames to beat a meaty throw from your opponent, then counter with a special move (that would’ve otherwise lost to the meaty throw).

why you do this:

while meaty throw doesn’t do a whole lot of damage, it does keep the pressure/stun on you, and your other options against it aren’t that great: wakeup DP is high risk low reward, and backdash or neutral jump have no payoff whatsoever (unless it was meaty command grab).

(some characters might have another option that punishes meaty throw, maybe a move that is airborne on the first frame or is simply throw invulnerable. I’m not familiar enough with the entire movelist to be sure)

while a jump cancel special is still risky (your opponent might not have meaty thrown at all), there is also a much higher potential payoff (super cancel, corner carry, etc.) if it does hit.

in the specific example magus1234 provides, EX butt is armored and would beat most other options. he can essentially switch between having EX butt beat meaty throws and having it beat meaty normals, which can throw the opponent off when they are thinking about how to play around it. there may be other attacks that could see similar benefits.

why you shouldn’t do this:

you get blown up if your opponent didn’t go for meaty throw, and currently it’s not something a lot of players are going for since they would rather meaty normal for bigger damage.

it is also hard to do, as you are essentially throwing away the reversal window and intentionally doing a reversal that is late by 2 frames.

how to do it:

do a motion for a special move and end it in up/up forward/upback. press the button for your special after or during your pre-jump frames.

pre-jump frames are short in this game compared to others (probably to help zangief do quick air SPDs), with magus1234 stating it’s roughly a 2 frame window to do the cancel.

timing is important here, as if you do the motion for your special too early the game can forget the motion and give you a jumping normal instead (which can either be OK or a catastrophe).

there is no visual indicator to let you know you’ve done it correctly - you’ll only know it was done correctly if it beats a throw.

while the example here is done on wakeup, the concept can be applied to any situation where you can be thrown.

hope this gets your brain thinking. #riseup


F.A.N.G. General Thread: Nothing up the Sleeve
#2

That’s some gay ass tech. Thx for sharing.


#3

In the early days of SFIV this used to be Gief’s only option against meaty DemonFlip Throw OS DP.


#4

Hmmm this sounds interesting for FANG considering his ex-command dash’s biggest flaw as an escape is that it can be grabbed.


#5

I like this.

Fuck meaty throws.


#6

Wow for years after vanilla I always thought, damn that OS must be pretty much guaranteed on Gief, even just doing the throw and reacting to any jump/backdash would probably work every time, but I never thought of utilizing the jump cancel like that, wow.


#7

Yea his Lariat would be thrown, invulnerable grabs would fail because Akuma was still airborne, so you had to jump-cancel Lariat. It’s old tech and has never been a big deal outside of obscure situations like that, so I’m not too worried about it becoming important in SFV. Lots of “twitter-tech” falls into that category, people get really excited over nothing on a regular basis.

Remember this? https://twitter.com/XianMSG/status/678265319949897728/

Yep.


#8

yeah, this has been possible in just about every fighting game that has pre-jump frames, and it’s true that it’s never been a big deal even though in theory it can completely obsolete a regular throw tech.

idk about sf5 though…


#9

But the mixup there is hit or grab. The jump cancel still loses to the hit so you’re still having to make the same guess and being able to jump cancel doesn’t give you more options. You could just plain jump into instant air Gale, or backdash in the corner into a combo, but in either case you still have to read throw and the JC doesn’t change that. The ‘option select’ for that is blocking into a late tech, but that of course loses to a step back bait, and the ease of beating the late tech in SFV is the main reason the game feels more honest in relation to IV.


#10

If I understand this correctly this is still hard because you have to be frame perfect with the UF+button if you want to get it properly. Nice tech though!


#11

Nice tech, will never use it though.


#12

I’m assuming that this can be used with command throws as well, so you can beat out anyone trying to bait the reversal by just blocking with it.


#13

How is an option select designed to beat moves that SHOULD lose to throws actually worse than throws?

This is way dumber than someone just throwing you on wakeup (which you could also just tech).


#14

I

It’s dumb but it has been around forever. It’s kinda funny that people are finding it a novelty now. “WOW specials can be jump cancelled!” It has been there since the early 90s. No one has noticed that Gief can throw people when he’s at minus frames in this game because gief players do hcb, ub+p for his motion when people like laura try elbow, command throw?

I stuff throw attempts as mika by doing hcb,up+k constantly rather than teching.


#15

I still think that meaty throws are stupid, just like they were in SFIV

I prefer SF2 in that regard, where you cannot be thrown during a few frames after waking up or recovering from an air reset

Without that the game is pretty much telling you to NOT BLOCK on wake up, EVER, just like SFIV did.

SF2 taught me the importance of blocking and IV and V told me “Screw that, just press a lot of buttons”


#16

wat


#17

Been trying to get used to using this in situations where Mika is under a lot of pressure.

But I rather use her other EX move. Ex Butt on wake up is becoming too predictable


#18

Wait, so does this mean that you don’t have throw invulnerability for a few frames after waking up?
Because I’ve heard others say that there is throw invuln. Getting conflicting messages here - unless “meaty throw” is shorthand for “throw on first throwable frame”.


#19

I’m curious about this as well. In sf4 you had two frames of throw invincibility any time you were able to do a reversal. I haven’t been able to find any information about it being/not being in 5.


#20

enjoy eating a crush counter combo.