Journey of a TigerLord - Vs. Rose

rose

#1

“Half of that man’s soul, so half the power? Hmph. Let’s see how strong you truly are.”

Greetings Rose forums. Normally I open this by saying this is a challenge thread and I wanna learn the match by playing *insert char of the forum I am in BUT…I know this match and I know it well. So as a tribute to Genistar, Luffy, sk, Saqs and any strong Rose that has ever traded blows with me, I’m doing things a bit differently this time.

Consider this match-up analysis a freebie. Hope you like the write-up and find it helpful.

Pros and Cons

Sagat

Pros

  • Amazing zoning due to Tiger shots and kara specials
  • Decent pokes to keep opponents out
  • Best comeback potential in the game
  • Tiger Uppercut gives him a solid AA/reversal
  • Really good Ultra’s to choose from
  • Above average health

Cons

  • Huge hitbox means he is vulnerable to ambiguous set/mix-ups
  • Bad backdash
  • Poor footsies due to poor walk speed and low mobility overall
  • Tiger uppercut is safe jumpable

Rose

Pros

  • Toolbox character that can play any way at any range
  • Great footsies due to good walk speed and a plethora of good normals and command normals with good properties and hitboxes.
  • Has great tools to break down zoning
  • Great throw game due to it’s great range
  • Awesome forward dash and backdash

Cons

  • Below average health
  • Mediocre damage means she must take some risks to make up for this deficiency
  • Very poor reversal game means she is very weak vs strong pressure and mix-ups especially on wake-up

Long Range

This is the domain of the Tiger King and for good reason. If you consider the speed and height of his shots that gives him 8 different kinds of shots for zoning. Include his karas and the importance of spacing and timing, this is undoubtedly Sagat’s realm. Rose has her tools though. She has own projectile and her reflect/absorption game. This range can be very tricky and alot can happen here. Depending on how each player reacts to the others actions and whether or not one of them can break down the other mentally will really set the pace for the rest of the match. Both chars have the same goal. To frustrate the other into becoming careless and taking a bad risk that they can punish. The only real difference is that Sagat can punish mistakes far harder and with Tiger Cannon he can still end games at full screen if Rose throws a bad fireball or reflects/FA’s at the wrong time. This is something Rose cannot do. Instead the Soulful Psychic must wear Sagat down and play a perfect game while making good reads. Both need to be perfect but only Sagat is given a large reward for his perfection. She is not without her answers though. As I said she can reflect or absorb and that can turn the tide, swinging momentum in her favor. So much can occur at this range that I could write a book about it and it would be impossible for me to break down every possible scenario. When these chars fight at this range it’s like they have their own personal complicated metagame. I will give some advice though. For Rose do not get caught up in trying to perfectly read shots. Trying to reflect and absorb everything is an endeavor that will get you killed. Sagat’s shots vary so much in speed that sooner or later you will get hit trying and that’s something Rose can’t afford especially if Sagat has meter stocked where he can juggle with ex shots or into Tiger Cannon. Be intelligent. Reflect some. Absorb some. Mix in neutral jumps and your own projectile use. Remember that ex sparks are great for gaining momentum since it lets you blow through shots. Reflect fast shots, ideally fast low ones. Reflecting high shots is somewhat worthless since Sagat can respond with a low shot which lets him duck his reflected high shot while not losing his momentum in the projectile war. High shots are better off being absorbed. And remember that you only need to absorb 2 shots for one ex bar. That’s a huge advantage she has and it NEEDS to be taken advantage of. Remember to reflect EX Shots with EX reflect. This is fighting fire with fire essentially and can really throw Sagat off his game and mess up his momentum. For Sagat, respond intelligently when shots are reflected and try not to lose momentum. He can FA his own projectiles so that’s an easy way to build revenge. If he has EX and a shot is reflected he can blow through his own shot and Rose as well if she was attempting to chase after it. Rose should know to FA some shots to build up her ultra. Although Rose can hold her own, that’s pretty much all she does. Her gameplan at this range amounts to little more then a stall. To win here takes extreme patience on her part and risk vs reward does not favor her at all. She does not excel at this range vs Sagat because compared to him her rewards are not as great. Her best bet is to build some meter while attempting to disrupt his momentum and the mental state of the opponent and then slowly move in so she can start to play footsies where she excels. Bad jump ins are easy prey to kara TU’s and double step rh so she must proceed with caution. Sliding is a good way past high shots and can even go under low shots with good timing. And she can neutral jump to throw off Sagats timing and safely evade shots with little risk. Rose has some tricks up her scarf but this is still Sagat’s turf.

Mid Range

Sagat is basically the same char here. A few tools may see use that they don’t see at long range such as EX TK and kara TK. Tiger shots are still strong. Slow ones are good for pushing Rose back out. Rose can get a bit riskier here. A jump in at the right time could net her a combo and some nice close up pressure. But she might just get baited then TUed or worse. EX TU is an easy set-up into Ultra 1 for just one bar. FAing a shot then dashing in is a fairly safe way to close distance. Might even be able to get some pressure in or a combo/throw depending on spacing. Sliding under shots is another fairly safe way in just be weary of slow shots as they are harder to slide under. Soul Spark is an option here though be careful since recovery is poor so a jump in at the right time from Sagat will mean alot of pain and now she is either back at full screen or on the ground dealing with Sagat’s wake-up pressure. EX shot is strong here as it will blow through FA attempts as well as regular reflect/absorb. Only really need to fear ex reflect which is hard to do on reaction at this range. Rose’s own EX Spark is a nice option here as well because it can blow through shots. No one has any real advantage at this range. It really just depends on what both players attempt to do. I will say that generally Rose will be more proactive at this range, but that doesn’t mean she is necessarily at a disadvantage. Just means Sagat has less reason to try to move unless she is super predictable. Generally though Sagat has more to gain from playing it safe here while Rose does not. But a good read at this range can totally throw Sagat off.

Tip: Rose with stocked Ultra changes the pace of this range. Soul Satellite activation is damn near a free pass to get in and throwing a shot at this range can get him Illusion Scarfed. Change your gameplan depending on what ultra you have.

Close Range/Footsies

Now Rose shines. She has alot of good buttons and with her walk speed she can control the pacing of the match here. She will have to play a bit different then she is used to though. Normally her go to buttons are st.mk, cr.mk and cr.mp. Sagat’s cr.mk laughs at these buttons. Their hitboxes are just easy targets for Gat’s st.mk. But she has many good buttons and has the tools to combat this particular button of Sagat’s. Well spaced spirals are a nice footsie tool and can shut down st.mk overuse. Rose’s st.mp and st.hp are great as well because they will tag the vulnerable area just above Sagat’s foot. st.hk can stuff his st.mk reliably during start-up but can still lose to it when they both come out at about the same time so use it sparingly. You may want to try f+hk (Soul Piedi) instead due to its great range. Her sweep is another good move for beating this poke. It can catch his legs and give you a free safe jump attempt. Her slide is another all purpose tool that should see very limited use during footsies. Sagat can tag this on reaction with cr.lk xx TU/TS. And the range where he can’t punish it on reaction, it’s unsafe on block. I would not recommend using it or only use it when you really wanna get in and don’t over use it. Sagat’s answers to these other tools would be TK and Tiger Shot. Tiger Shot as a poke is very strong. Being a projectile it will beat any hitbox it interacts with. These can be stuffed on start-up with hk though so make Sagat weary by hanging out at that range where hk hits at the tip. She can do the same with sweep. TK is tricker. Faster start-up and although it can be stuffed on start-up its a bit harder to do so since it does come out faster. It will beat pretty much anything Rose does once it’s out and if she is in range. If you react fast enough you can slide under it or cr.mk to duck it then punish it. Sagat’s FA is another strong response at this range. Rose’s sweep as well as other good non cancellable pokes are vulnerable to this so be careful. Keep FA use in check with spaced spirals. Sagat has alot of good options, but Rose’s main weapon is her footspeed letting her control her spacing much more freely then Sagat. If Sagat outpokes you don’t be discouraged or take a foolish risks. Just analyze the situation and switch it up. Rose’s ideal range is probably max sweep distance while Sagat’s ideal range is about the tip of his st.lk which can stuff sweep on start-up and he can still throw out st.mk to hit something if she pressed a button. His st.mk CAN stuff spirals depending on spacing so be aware of this Rose players. Footsies is very dynamic between these chars and is constantly changing since both chars have answers to diff buttons/actions. Still this area of the fight favors Rose, no doubt.

Pressure/Corner/Wake-up game

Sagat takes it here on both sides. Rose’s defense is simply too poor. She has a hard time getting opponents off of her. If Sagat nets a knockdown Rose is almost guaranteed to take damage. She may even have to allow Sagat to net some relatively small damage like an overhead rather then eat a tech trap with Tiger Uppercut and have Sagat combo into the doomsday combo and end the round or comeback on her. On wake-up she can’t stop Sagat’s meaty pressure really either. He can just OS meaty and any attack she does will not hit Sagat in time when he does a meaty low short. He will just block and punish her. So now she is regulated to backdashing or just trying to block it out. Blocking means dealing with frame traps, overheads, cross-ups, TK strings, etc. Stuff that Rose isn’t so hot at dealing with consistently. She can FA backdash too but that loses to grabbing out right. Her best option is EX spiral FADC backdash, but that’s 3 bars, a very hefty price to get out of one bad situation. On the flipside she has a pretty strong pressure game herself thanks to cl.mk being unthrowable. So an OS crouch tech gets blown up by her pretty easily then she can net a combo. Sagat does have TU though so she needs to watch it. And he can also OS cr.mp + crouch tech so he will low strong and tag Rose when she does cl.mk which mitigates this strength of hers to a point. Corner is death for Rose as she can’t backdash anywhere. If Sagat manages to get her here the fight is basically over. Don’t let that happen. He also gets extra damage off TK’s when he has Angry Charge stocked since he can juggle with TU after them. Sagat in the corner is much better for Rose as expected and she can combo off reflects into soul throw for some extra damage. When she has U2 out it can be a problem for Sagat since she can do very ambiguous set-ups off knockdowns. If she has super too and manages to get a combo off it can net over half life damage. Nothing to scoff at. But those instances can be hard to set-up and would require Rose to sit on bar something she might not want to do vs Sagat. Once again Sagat takes it here on offense and defense.

Overview

Because Rose is a char that can hold her own anywhere on the screen but does not dominate, this match is interesting. Rose can play it anyway and Sagat can respond to her actions. I see no reason for her to linger at long range. She simply isn’t rewarded for doing so. I say build some meter and revenge and move closer. Sagat however should try to keep her here. It’s in his best interest to do, that way he doesnt have to deal with her great footsies and risk her getting in and then dealing with her throw game. Mid range can be risky for both though Sagat doesn’t really need to do much but play it safe. Footsies of course is money for Rose. I feel Rose should flow from range to range when it benefits her. Don’t spend too much time at any one range aside from footsie range maybe since she does well there. I also think she should at least try to have super stocked so if and when she gets in and scores a combo she can cancel into Aura Spark for sum serious damage. Rose only needs to absorb 8 shots to get a full bar. That’s the kind of damage she truly needs to get a real momentum swing not to mention it gives her a hard knockdown and safe jump attempt. She does have some core weaknesses that Sagat can take advantage of and it’s for that reason that I give him the nod. In many situations risk vs reward simply favors him not because he is so much better but because she doesnt hit hard enough or have the tools to convert into huge damage. AAing is a perfect example where Sagat can literally kill you off a baited jump in consistently because he has the tools to FORCE her to jump. Rose can’t do that to Sagat. She cannot force him to jump or take a risk. He however can force a risk. Rose is a risk taker because she loses that battle of attrition and many times that can play into Sagat’s hands. So make him play your game. Piss him off. Build your meter. Reflect intelligently. Get your damage in during footsies and bait him to do something predictable so you can net an easy jump in. Rose has the tools to win this match even if it is a tough one.

Hope you guys liked the write-up and that it helped you level up or increased your knowledge in sum way, shape or form.

If you think I should cover something let me know and I’ll be happy to do so.


SSF4 AE Rose Match-up Thread
SSF4 Tier List Thread REBOOT Super + AE (Updated: 02-01-09)
#2

personnally I think that the fireball war can differ to a certain point at long range:

Rose has the possibility to completely ignore high tiger shots and slide under them to close the gap between the two and bring it to a footsies based fight while doing reflect / FA / block / neutral jump against low tiger shots. Of course Rose can’t do anything excessive and has to play solid. The EX reflect buff is now another tool she can now rely on since she can afford to use it sometimes (absorbing / occasional soul sparks will make her get the meter back) and get momentum.

But everything else that you said I agree on it


#3

Talked about Rose getting in a bit with slide at long range and mentioned ex reflect as well though I thought ex reflect was kind of a given lol.


#4

Yeah the new ex reflect properties definitely make me more comfortable with this matchup. I usually start my movement inwards when I have 2 bars stocked.


#5

awesome! ty EL.


#6

Thank you so much! This matchup definetely gets to me every single time! I absolutely hate it. I beleive this tactics will help me out quite a bit more. I appreciate it.