Juggle Mechanics:


#1

I’m about to start writing a program that basically simplifies combo design by doing all of the work for you, sort of like a combo calculator that would determine whether or not it’s possible given the frame data. It will also automatically calculate realistic damage numbers (auto-combo scaling and damage scaling based on current health).

All that is relatively easy. The first hurdle I’m looking at though is juggle mechanics. I understand there’s a maximum of 5 hits during a juggle state that can go before you just can’t juggle people. But this doesn’t necessarily hold up in certain conditions; infinite super bar lets you EX.SRK someone infinitely; Ryu’s Super > Ultra is 9 hits, so is the super considered one hit? Alternatively, EX.Tatsu > EX.SRK > FADC Ultra, the ultra full connects despite the previous ~6 hit juggle.

Apologies if there’s a very in depth thread about this, but I used the search engine and didn’t find any noticeable mentions of exactly what the juggle mechanics are.

From the looks of it, there’s certain moves that have certain juggle properties. For instance, Akuma’s shakunetsu fireball’s hits all count as 1 hit towards the juggle, as do his shoryukens, but Ryu’s EX Fireball only counts as 1 hit towards the juggle, whereas his ultra appears to have mixed capabilities in that it CAN hit up for 4 times and then stop but it can also fully connect presumably based on the move used previously.

Is there anyone that can fill in the exact properties behind…juggling as a whole? It’ll be quite helpful towards making the program as useful as possible.

(The second hurdle I’ll have to get over is distance between characters :xeye:)


Akuma FAQs: Quick questions & answers!
#2

Juggles aren’t hit based, they are move based.
Moves either put you on reset, un-hittable, float or juggle state.

On float state, you can hit your opponent with anything. If you use a move that puts your opponent on float state while your opponent is already on float state, you will put your opponent on float state again. Ken can ex dp, fadc, ex dp xN someone with infinite super because the opponent never leaves float state.

On juggle state, you can only hit with moves that actually have juggling properties.(the moves that are marked as “can juggle”/“pursuit property” on frame data)
You can’t hit your opponent after juggling using a “juggle enabled” move with anything other than a super or ultra.

Hope that helps.


#3

It’s based on the old Juggle Potential system. There’s no juggle limit like in Third Strike.

Every individual hit of a move has a juggle potential value. If the juggle count has not exceeded this number and the opponent is in the air-knockdown state (falling on their back), that hit will juggle. It’s impossible to juggle someone unless they are in that air-knockdown state.

Most hits that juggle someone add 1 point to the juggle count, while the rest reset it to 0. There seems to be a limit on the use of that reset property. Some moves with the reset property are only effective once per combo. After the first use, the hit will simply add 1 to the juggle count.

I think that’s the simplest set of rules that explains all the combos in the game.


USF4 Ken Improvement Thread (+EVO Result)
#4

Btw, to write that program, not only will you need to figure out the internal juggle potential values, you will need to know how long the opponent hangs in the air (which may even vary by character) and how far moves reach (basically the hitboxes).


#5

You’re totally wrong.


#6

Can the program have stick figures?

please?


#7

you too because if you were right, there’d never be any instances where a multi-hitting move will whiff…


#8

Never taught of that, maby because Dhalsim has a slow jump, he might drop slow…


#9

a little extra info
during a crumple state.
a fireball can juggle an opponent if they’re hit during the later state of the crumple when they’ve hit their knees. if they’re standing the fireball just puts them in hitstun.
so sagat can do
FA (hit) backdash->(wait till opponent hits their knees) lts->fadc->lts->fadc ultra.
and ryu can do
FA (hit) backdash ->(wait till opponent hits their knees) fireball -> fadc-> ultra.

useless but it works


#10

I’m home sick from work today, so I’ll give it a shot… I’m curious to know the ins and outs of it as well. If anyone can add to this or even debunk it, please do! :smiley:

First we have to look at the two types of falling that occur when you hit someone out of (or into) the air:
**Reset **- they land on their feet
**Knockdown **- they land on their back

You can’t juggle after you hit them with a move that causes reset. So knockdown attacks are the important moves that set up juggles.

There are two types of knockdown attacks:
hard knockdown attack - will knockdown a grounded opponent
soft knockdown attack - will only knockdown an airborne opponent

A general Street Fighter rule of thumb is that all special moves will cause knockdown. If not Hard knockdowns, they will at least be Soft knockdowns. Normal attacks on the other hand (with the exception of sweeps) do not knockdown and will cause a reset against airborne opponents. There are exceptions, especially with command normals, but for the most part this is the case.

Next, you have a few different knockdown states that the oponent can be put into:
sweep knockdown - duh (I don’t think you can juggle after this, but I haven’t tested much)
standard knockdown - only moves with juggle potential can juggle during this time
float knockdown - anything can hit them, does not need juggle potential (this is rare!)

What is juggle potential? A value assigned to moves to allow them to hit opponents who are in standard knockdown state. If you exceed this value while juggling, this move will no longer be able to juggle the opponent (you have surpased its juggle potential).

So now you just need to know which attributes and values have been assigned to which moves.

Let’s look at Sagat’s moves:
Move

  • Hard/Soft, Juggle potential (Float?)
    High Tiger
  • Soft, 0
    **Low Tiger **
  • Soft, 1
    High EX Tiger
  • Hard, 2
    **Low EX Tiger **
  • Hard, 2
    **Tiger Uppercut **
  • Hard, 0
    EX Tiger Uppercut
    1st Part - Hard, 0
    2nd Part - Hard, 4
    **Tiger Knee **
    1st Part - Soft, 0
    2nd Part - Hard, 1
    3rd Part - Hard, 1 (0 if 2nd part hits)
    EX Tiger Knee
    1st Part - Soft, 0
    2nd Part - Hard, 1
    3rd part - Hard, 1
    **Towards+Roundhouse **
  • Soft, 1
    Super
    1st Part (knee) - Soft, Unlimited
    2nd Part (uppercut) - Hard, Unlimited
    Ultra
    1st Part (knee) - Soft, Unlimited
    2nd Part (uppercut) - Hard, Unlimited
    Focus
    lvl1 - Soft, 0 (crumple grounded opponents on counter-hit)
    lvl2 - Hard, 0 (crumple grounded opponents, Float if first knockdown vs airborne opponents)
    lvl3 - Hard, 0 (crumple grounded opponents, Float if first knockdown vs airborne opponents)
    **Focus Crumple
    1st part - the opponent is considered to be standing
    2nd part - the opponent is in an airborne Float state

All of Sagat’s other moves (besides sweep) won’t knockdown a grounded opponent, and will reset airborne opponents. The moves above are his knockdown moves.

Let’s run through a combo:

Tiger Uppercut (causes standard knockdown)
FADC
Towards+Roundhouse (juggle potential = 1)
1-hit EX Low Tiger (juggle potential = 2)

So, you land a Tiger Uppercut, to put them into standard knockdown state. Now you can only juggle with a move that has juggle potential. So you do Towards+ Roundhouse for 1 hit. This has a juggle potential of 1, so it can hit opponents who are in standard knockdown state. However, you can now only continue to juggle if you use a move with a juggle potential of 2 or greater. So you then do EX Low Tiger which has a juggle potential value of 2, to score 1 hit (You used up one of it’s potential juggle hits with the Towards+Roundhouse, 2 - 1 = 1). Now you have used up 2 points of juggle potential total. If you want to continue juggling you will have to use a move with a juggle potential value of 3 or greater. So the only moves that will juggle at this point are EX-Uppercut, or Super/Ultra.

Now let’s look at Ryu’s knockdown moves:
**Fireball **

  • Soft, 0
    **EX Fireball **
  • Hard, 2
    **Hurricane Kick **
  • Hard, 0
    EX Hurricane Kick
    1st to 4th Kicks - Soft, 5
    5th Kick - Hard, 5
    **Air Hurricane Kick **
  • Hard, 0
    Air EX Hurricane Kick
    1st Kick - Hard, 0
    2nd to 5th Kicks - Hard, 5
    **Dragon Punch **
  • Hard, 0
    EX Dragon Punch
    1st Part - Hard, 0
    2nd Part - Hard, 1
    Jump MP
    1st Part - Soft, 0 (Float!)
    2nd Part - Soft, 2
    **Super **
    1st to 4th hits - Soft, 5
    5th hit - Hard, 5 (causes sweep knockdown against grounded opponents)
    Ultra
    1st to 7th hits - Soft, 8
    8th hit - Hard, 8 (causes sweep knockdown against grounded opponents)
    Focus
    lvl1 - Soft, 0 (crumple grounded opponents on counter-hit)
    lvl2 - Hard, 0 (crumple grounded opponents, Float if first knockdown vs airborne opponents)
    lvl3 - Hard, 0 (crumple grounded opponents, Float if first knockdown vs airborne opponents)
    **Focus Crumple
    1st part - the opponent is considered to be standing
    2nd part - the opponent is in an airborne Float state

Looking at the above information, I can tell that the following combo is possible:
Anti-Air lvl3 Focus (causes Float)
Fireball (causes standard knockdown)
2-hit EX Fireball (juggle potential = 2 during standard knockdown)
6-hit Ultra (juggle potential = 8 during standard knockdown)

…and I just tried it in training mode, and yep, it works.

Overall, this system seems to help explain a lot of the juggles in this game… you just have to determine what properties are assigned to what move. Some are pretty specific and exceptional (like Ken’s counter-hit fierce DP), but besides that, once you work out the values and states through experimentation the results are very stable.

I also realize that I could be wrong on all counts, this is just what I’ve noticed so far… perhaps there is a deeper system at work here (which could explain for all the property variation) but this gets the job done for me. :stuck_out_tongue:


#11

gotta love when people post without knowing wtf they are talking about. even better when the post that they are ignorant about is a post accusing someone else of lacking knowledge on a subject.


#12

That happens because the opponent is “bouncing” outside of the combo during the non-hitting frames.
Happens mainly with fireballs.


#13

So, do you know? Looking for some solid information here, theories certainly help…but it’d be nice to have someone post that’s pretty knowledgeable on it.

Though, I get the feeling what he posted is close to being accurate or accurate; obviously normal moves reset the opponent, certain moves put them in a juggle state where they can only be hit by 5 more moves that put them in juggle state consecutively, there’s obviously a state that is better than juggle state in which full ultra’s can be connected (counter-hit ken srk’s FADC’ed into full ultra for instance), and there definitely states where people just straight can’t be hit. After an ultra for instance, most noticeably Guile’s, there’s plenty of time to hit the person but it’ll whiff no matter what.

Various moves individual hits put people in different states or have different properties (Guile High Kick puts people in a juggle state, EX.FK’s second hit is allowed to continue juggling people but the first hit isn’t).

After thinking about it like that, a lot of things actually make sense; Ken’s EX Fireball’s first or second hit has juggle properties but the other doesn’t, that’s why only one hit hits after a shoryu. However off of a counter-hit shoryu, you could FADC into an entire EX.srk because of the state they’re in.

Also, more importantly than the juggle system really, is the distance. I suppose, that if I wanted to spend the time, I could measure all moves relative to the size of Ryu’s character size and assign values based on those measurements (would have to take a whole hell of a lot of screenshots and do some comparisons).

Or I could just simply ignore it, as I can’t really think of a juggle combo that you could do that you are purely limited on distance for not being able to execute it. All combos could be assumed to be done into the corner to eliminate that variable. Whether or not various juggles would work is semi irrelevant, as that’s far more reliant on the recovery time of the move you used to put them in that juggle state. :nunchuck:

On that note, it’s my birthday tomorrow (no longer a teenager, thank god), and I will be receiving my TE Stick ^_^. I am very happy about this.


#14

nos99 summed it up very well
If I recall, Capcom vs SNK 2 uses a similar system that is very well detailed in one of the big FAQs on GameFAQs. Except nos99’s explanation is easier to understand


#15

Wait, what? Guile’s opponent lands waaaaay before recovers, there’s NO time to hit the person. Are you talking about the super?

Guile
Down-Towards+Roundhouse

  • Hard, 0
    EX-Flashkick
    1st part - Hard, 0
    2nd part - Hard, 1

BOTH hits of Ken’s EX-Fireball have juggle properties. They both have a juggle potential of 1.

People are telling you what you want to know, but you don’t seem to want to hear it?


#16

Ah no nos99 actually I hadn’t fully read your post at the time and was replying to someone else. And yes, I was thinking of his super.

So, for Guile’s flash-kick say… that would have a juggle property of something like 2? As you can connect an EX sonic boom for both hits afterward (And they have juggle property 1 each hit?). Given that you trade hits* (should have mentioned that).

Double forward roundhouse still is fuzzy for me, but, for the most part the rest of it makes sense.


#17

In that situation, it doesn’t actually juggle twice, it only juggles once.

If they jump, and you hit them out of the air with Towards+Roundhouse, this is not a juggle. This is simply a knockdown. It is a Soft knockdown that puts the opponent in standard knockdown state. You haven’t juggled yet, because juggling is when you hit your opponent during knockdown state (you haven’t done that yet).

Since they are now in standard knockdown state, and Towards+Roundhouse has a juggle potential of 1, and you haven’t juggled yet, you can do a second Towards+Roundhouse and it will hit them.

Can you do [Towards+RH]x3 against a jumping opponent? Nope, no juggle potential left.

The reasons above are also why Uppercut, FADC, Towards+Roundhouse, Towards+Roundhouse doesn’t work. The Uppercut causes the knockdown, the first step kick works because it has a juggle potential of 1, but it then second step kick whiffs because it’s juggle potential is ONLY 1, and that was already used up on the first kick.

There IS a way to legitimately juggle with [Towards+RH]x2, and that is after an anti-air lvl2-3 focus attack. This will cause float knockdown. This is a (great) type of knockdown where anything will hit and doesn’t use up any juggle potential.

Ryu’s EX Fireball is a hard knockdown with a juggle potential of 2.

If you do [EX Fireball]x2 combo, here’s what happens:
1st EX Fireball

  • 1st hit, causes knockdown
  • 2nd hit, juggles (1st juggle hit)
    2nd EX Fireball
  • 1st hit, juggles (2nd juggle hit)
  • 2nd hit, whiff (would need juggle potential of 3 in order to hit)

#18

So the first hit knocks down, the second hit is the first juggle which sets the counter to 2 or 1? The way I’m looking at it would be that the second EX fireball puts the juggle count to 1. But because EX Hadouken is able to juggle up to 2, the next one connects for the first hit, totaling the 2 juggle count possible from the move and then ends, requiring more juggle potential to continue?

So this would mean that there is a distinction between what each individual hit of a move has for juggle potential and what the totality of the juggle potential of the move. Am I correct in thinking this?

Knockdown -> +1 (not yet 2) -> +1 (reached the juggle cap for EX hadouken despite that it was spread out between multiple moves) -> whiff.

To use a prior example, just to make sure I’ve got the jist of this down…

Akuma’s Fierce Shoryuken has:
1st hit: No knockdown property at all.
2nd hit: Hard knockdown – Juggle potential of 2
3rd hit: Hard knockdown – Juggle potential of 3

Fierce Shakunetsu:
1st hit: Hard knockdown – Juggle potential of 5
2nd hit: Hard knockdown – Juggle potential of 5
3rd hit: Hard knockdown – Juggle potential of 5

Which would mean that if you FADC off of the third hit of Akuma’s FP.Srk, FP.Shaku will connect up until it’s juggle potential then stop, which is true, the third hit whiffs. Alternatively, if you FADC off of the second hit, the entire shaku connects.

This leads me to believe that the Mp.Shaku has a juggle potential of 4, since off of the third hit of a FP.SRK (if I’m not mistaken) only one of the two hits connect.

Alright, definitely gaining the hang of this.

Akuma’s lk.tatsu has a juggle property of 1, as does his lp.srk, so an anti-air lk.tatsu puts them in standard knockdown, the lp.srk once you get to the ground sets the count to 1, and you can still FADC for the full shaku.

However, you -can’t- lp.srk if you do a multi-hitting tatsu midair.

EDIT Ah!! Thank you so much. His EX.FB has a JP of 2, EX.SRK has a JP of 4, etc. etc. This was incredibly helpful, thank you very much for your assistance.


#19

So why if I do Sagat’s high step kick into ex fireball, both hits of the fireball connect. But if I do 2 step kicks into ex fireball, only one hit connects and then they “bounce out” like you say. Btw, according to your first post, I could technically juggle infinitely with ex fireballs just because it has the pursuit property (you don’t understand juggle potentials). Thus, you are a dumb fuck.

nos’s post is basically what I wrote in more words plus examples. I think mine is actually more complete.

The juggle mechanics are based on an old system, but the part that’s new and I’m still kinda sketchy on is the juggle count resets (what nos calls “float” state). For example, Rufus’ far st. HK (the launcher) resets the count. Start a combo with far st. HK, and now since the count is at 0, any next hit will juggle, such as his normals (which have 0 juggle potential). So what happens if you use far st. HK again? It doesn’t reset the count this time, because for example his normals will not juggle now.

On the flip side, look at Gouken’s fireballs. They reset the count but they continue to reset the count even after multiple uses. I’ve managed two HP fireballs, a LP fireball, and finally ended with a jab.

Where’s Majestros when you need him!

P.S. I’m pretty sure Ken’s counterhit HP shoryu is buggy, so any combos that result are exceptional and won’t fit the model. No need to rework the rules around it.


#20

LP shoryu has 0 JP. Air tatsu and ground LK tatsu reset the count (float knockdown). Try it, you can juggle with normals (0 JP) after them. But like you said, if more than one hit of air tatsu connects, you can’t juggle with LP shoryu (or any other 0 JP hit). The reason for that is the restriction on juggle count resets I was talking about. First hit of air tatsu resets the count, then the second hit simply adds 1, so now you need JP of 1 or more.