Juri balance/buff ideas

juri

#21

Hsien Chang placed higher with her at a big tournament with lots of hard hitters than Tampa Bison who’s been playing Bison since day one. She’s officially relevant. Can’t remember the last time Bison has top 12’d anything big and he’s been out in his current form since like December of last year. Not every character is top tier, but as of now it seems that Juri players have to step it up more than her being bad. She’s just a character you put work into and get results off of that.

Not in the same step as other truly bad characters that you don’t get real reward for no matter how much work you put into. She doesn’t have any matchups as bad as Gief, Bison or Fang have and has a higher ceiling for tech advancement.

IMO she’s just small buffs away from being high tier and that’s all you’re really going to get from Capcom. The rest is how the meta revolves around the characters since Capcom is very particular about balance these days. This is the same game where people assumed Ryu’s nerfs would make him low tier and people still thought Bison was good even though he got nerfed into the ground before launch. He already didn’t have a stable neutral game, defensive game or V Gauge building game which automatically sets you up for a terrible time in this game. Juri is much more stable.

Plus there’s the chance of new mechanics being added like extra V Skills, V Triggers or just something entirely new that can shake up the meta and where the characters fall.


#22

I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLfEFlV38fM


#23

[quote=“Revelant, post:22, topic:181260”]

I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.

[/quote]

I like the things you chose to highlight. I feel like she isn’t really all that bad, just some decisions on hitboxes/hurtboxes/frame data going on under the hood of the game need some adjustment to be properly functional. Her overall design, to me, is not in need of some massive overhaul.

The only thing you left out is that her hazanshu can also be thrown on the way down, while still visibly airborne and that it has no hitbox until it hits the ground, which i find irritating as all hell.

And you can also highlight that her RH doesn’t beat all lows in the same way her overhead doesn’t beat all lows. I will easily go over Urien’s sweep, but I will lose or trade with Ryu’s more often than not for example.


#24

@“DevilJin 01” Let’s not forget that many of the buffs I suggest are mutually exclusive :stuck_out_tongue: For example, a damage buff in one area (say, cr mp) would mean she would not require it in another (say, v skill). They’re just ideas after all


#25

I really don’t think Ryo needs to be an overhead (maaaaybe EX, but even then it wouldn’t be necessary. That’s not what the move is used for). I do think it could use some projectile invincibility near the end though. Mk release may or may not need be an overhead… Don’t forget that it leads to combos. But if it was, I would make it more punishable on block (yes, more than -6. Maybe -8). I was really hesitant to say armour on vskill since I thought it could be kinda OP. Grey life would be mandatory if it had one hit of armour. I really think jump cancelling or faster cancelling would be more appropriate.


#26

[quote=“Revelant, post:22, topic:181260”]

I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.

[/quote]

I agree with the things you highlighted in this video. Most of those properties seem unintentional so capcom should make her hitboxes/hurtboxes/properties more consistent come balance patch time.

I don’t think ryo needs a hitbox while airborne because the move it’s modeled after (hazanshu) never had a hitbox while airborne. It’s not meant to stop jumps or apply pressure like laura/abel wheelkick, it’s supposed to go over lows and fireballs and get you in. I think target combo whiffing on crouch is intentional. The move looks like it shouldn’t hit crouchers and ken has a similar kick tc where the second hit whiffs crouchers so I think that’s design choice.

Not sure if it’s just me messing up the timing/spacing but it seems that after landing ex ryo on some characters hk pinwheel misses entirely. If that is a character specific problem I’d like to see it fixed. Nothing more demoralizing then seemingly sealing a round with an ex ryo to pinwheel only to have the pinwheel whiff and eating a huge combo.

Other than the things from the video and ex ryo>hk pinwheel I think Juri’s fine as is. If capcom balancers are feeling generous come patch time I’d love to see f.mk overhead become chain cancelable while in VT.


#27

I think ryo’s should at least have a hitbox before hitting the ground. maybe not high into the arc like Nash’ moonsault, but as the leg reaches standing levels it could be active. It makes such little sense to me visually that I find it irritating.


#28

Or just make her throwinvincible as soon she leaves the ground?

Lots of the things in the video existed in previous SF games too. Or do I have to remind people that lots of Combos just whiffed on a standing Juri,not to mentoi how f*cked up Elena was.
Most stuff like the overhead not going over all lows is a hitbox thing.
I suggest using the hitbox viewer and check it yourself,you will see that Ryus sweep Hitbox is bigger than Uriens for example.
But you have to be on PC for this.

So here are my ideas:
st.mk -2 on block
st.hk more advantage after CC
st.mp +5 on hit, st.mp -> cr.mp xx Ryo would be a possible BnB
V-Skill charges faster.

Now what I had in mind.
V-Trigger: Chained normals no longer drain the Meter,Specials still do.
This would increase the duration.


#29

Its sad but she need a lot of buffs and I dont think a major balance patch will make it for her but anyway.

Here my ideas:

st.mp +5 on hit and extend the hitbox just a bit to macth her elbow
st.mk -2 on block and move a bit forward just like in SF4
st.hk this button is really bad, it needs faster start up (10-12), sligthly more damage (90), to move a bit further and better advantage on CC.
cr.hp needs to be a true anti air
f.mk she should be able to combo of her overhead in V-trigger

Ryodansatsu EX is dumb, it has lower damage (80), lower stun (150), slower start up (25), its only -2 on block and can be easily be beated by a many things. Imo this move should be like damage (120), stun (200), start up (20), on block (-2) and overhead.

Fuharenkuaku (store) needs more damage (50) and larger hitbox
Fuharenkyaku (lk) needs more stun (100) since she cant spam it and travel more distance.

As for mk and hk fuhas Im not sure but it sucks to have to burn all your resourses to at best be -2.

V-Skills sucks, it needs 1 hit of armor and charge faster.

V-reversal sucks if you lucky it will hit and still you get nothing.

V-Trigger sucks, it needs to be a come back factor again, and be 2 bars, its mix up potential is practically unexisted unless your opponent is cornered and still very limited. Im not sure but, is it the only v-trigger that reduce your damage output??

Everything else I think is fine or at least not that bad.


#30

I would like to see better frame advantage on normals/throws, 2 bar v-trigger, and better boxes on stores


#31

Although i wouldn’t disagree with her having a medium, medium link, i think there are a few better suggestions which will improve her overall damage output and allow you to to be more creative.
This is all wishfull thinking ofcourse because Capcom is notorious for not giving people what they want.

[list]
[*] LK fireball +5 on hit, still -2 on block
[/list]
Instead of st.mp, cr.mp i MUCH prefer this as it will completely cover her low damage output at the cost of having to spend a lk release. The obvious combo is st.mp xx qcf+lk(release), cr.mp xx qcb+lk, however on crouchers the st.mp also connects which you can then cancel into a qcf+k(store).

So the lk fireball release serves 2 purposes, use it as a way to approach, use it to extend combos. On crouchers you can store another one immediately for a bit less damage unless you are willing to do EX qcf+k.

If Capcom wants to be dicks they can make it +4 so only the st.lk link will work and it will only link after (ch st.lp) st.mp, anything else won’t work. This will not address the low damage output and it will not be nearly as much fun…

[list]
[*] st.mp needs to have slightly less pushback on hit and block.
[/list]
This way you are in range to link cr.lp after a st.mp on standing characters, there are a few benefits to this if the pushback is sligtly decreased after a st.mp:

  • Regular hit(do cr.lp xx special), Counterhit(cr.mp xx special), Blocked st.mp(you can frametrap with cr.lp, which can combo in cr.mp on counterhit)
  • Another benefit is you can hold downback and easily react to the counterhit and do cr.mp, if it’s a regular hit, you can do cr.lp(much easier than switching between st.lk and cr.mp)

[list]
[*] VT 2 bars OR 3 bars without chain draining
[/list]
This is pretty obvious, in it’s current state the VT drains when doing any chain or special, this is not worth a 3 bar VT. Her VT isn’t gone THAT fast though so even if it’s a 2 bar VT it is unlikely Juri will be able to get a 2nd VT without CC or V-Skill usage, both aren’t realistic. I would prefer a 3 bar VT that doesn’t drain like Chun(which is a 2 bar VT…) if Juri her V-Skill remains the same.

[list]
[*] Start only the 1st round with full stores and charged V-Skill. Stored specials and charged v-skill during a round will carry over to the next round
[/list]
Currently she is fighting for space in the beginning or wasting precious time pressure opportunities in ending blockstrings into stored specials. let alone finding the time to get a charged v-skill off. By starting a round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will allow her much need breathing room and be more creative in her approach. Only starting the first round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will still require the player to actively think about how to end a round so they can make the most of it in the upcoming rounds. Resource management will then imho play an even greater roll than it currently does but also gives more potential advantages. This will further diversify the way players can play Juri.

[list]
[*] cr.hp improved hitbox
[/list]
Cr.hp is clearly meant as an anti-air however its hitbox is laughable. It trades on almost any occasion, i understand Capcom their reluctance to make it good because of its CC property but at this point it’s not even worth trying as eating a jump because the cr.hp failed to do its job is too big of a risk. Improve the hitbox for anti airing and also increase it slightly horizontally because it literally has less reach than either her crouching or standing light punch. Having her cr.hp improved alone will up her damage potential.

[list]
[*] Charge V-Skill faster
[/list]
At this point there isn’t any real incentive to charge her v-skill, it’s difficult to find moments to charge, as a mixup tool it is VERY gimmicky, using it on reaction to a projectile is very difficult and only works against slower projectiles and from far away otherwise it simply will get stuffe. You can’t feint early etc. It’s straight up garbadge.

[list]
[] st.mp>b.hp hit crouching characters
[/list]
This is tough as Juri can either cancel into a store or a lk release to make it safe and on hit it gives good damage and knockdown pressure. If it hits crouchers you can literally just spam this tool by doing st.lp, st.mp>b.hp without any consequence. Cammy her TC is punishable on block as is Ken his b.mp>hp TC and he needs to spend meter to make it safe. In combination with her being able to link after a qcf+lk(release) you will be able to do some fancy combos on crouhcers and in the corner.
*As a way to compromise it hitting crouchers i suggest Juri to be unable to cancel into anything on block however make the TC itself hitconfirmable like Ken his b.mp>hp. People that put in the time will be able to hitconfirm it and other people that are having trouble doing this can still do st.lp, st.mp>b.hp if they see the counterhit from a light attack.

[list]
[*] Fuharenkyaku(store) 2 more active frames
[/list]
It currently only has 3 active frames, which is very little especially when trying to cancel out other projectiles. By giving more active frames there is a bit more leniency in this aspect and she’ll fullfill her archetype of actually being able to function as somewhat of an anti zoner. Giving 2 more active frames allows her to be +2 on block when it’s done as a meaty and the last active frames is blocked and seeing how qcf+k(store) has very little pushback this will allow her to continue pressure somewhat. Otherwise she would do a st.lp, st.mp xx store and the pressure ends there. Giving it 2 more active frames will also cover both normal and back recovery on paper however it doesn’t have the reach for back recovery unless done in the corner.
It will be minus on block for normal recovery and plus against backrecovery as a meaty and it only works in the corner however in a way it can then potenially be used like how it was in USFIV.


There is no reason to get more frameadvantage after throws if the above suggestions are implemented, she’ll have other ways to apply meaties because she gets stored specials more easily or decide to back off as she has more ways to approach and play the neutral with the additional advantage of being able to start a round with stored specials and a charged v-skill.

st.mk being -2 has no use either, the pushback is so large that it is virtually unpunishable anyway. If used upclose you would cancel it into a store anyway which makes it -2.

st.hk CC is fine, you get a bunch ways to convert into good damage. At almost any distance you get a dash into a standin light. Depending on the spacing you need to cancel the light into a dp+lk or if closer you can cancel into )dp+mk/hk/ex. You can even cancel into a store and follow it with an EX qcf+k. If you’re closer you get a (walk up) st.hk.


#32

While I agree with most of your ideas I this her st.hk CC really needs more advantage to at least be able to get a dash into medium, other characters can get a CC into a fierce or roundhouse, why Juri cant even get a medium?

And about her target combo hitting croushing characters being too strong, I think adreesed by increasing the push back on her fuha store will do it so she will ends her pressure, and about using a fuha release to make it safe I think is fine since she will be burning resourses just like Ken.

And I really think her V-skill needs more than charging faster, imo 1 hit of armor with gray life will do it , that way she could gain v-gauge of her v-skill and not just from damage.


#33

@LockM
I agree with most of what you said, especially the VT part (why the hell does Chun have a 2 bar VT with the duration of a 3 bar one??). However, I’m not sure about a couple of things (I know most of it is wishful thinking, no worries).
For one, I don’t think she needs to start the first round with all resources. What she does need is a better way to acquire them. You covered them well though: Better pressure options to charge up (seriously, you can’t really keep pressure going with most of her normals being - on block and pretty much only one reliable frame trap). More pushback on store, less pushback on some normals, fast vskill charge/cancel (which btw would probably allow for combo opportunities in case of CC. For example, CC cr hp xx vskill xx dash, normal and follow up), etc.

I think I mostly disagree with TC hitting crouching opponents, for the simple reason that it already works fine at punishing moves that leave the opponent in a standing state, like Necalli’s charge dash.


#34

I was kinda iffy on it because if you happen to get a counterhit light on an opponent into st.mp, you then go into the TC regardless where as now you need to hitconfirm the counterhit on standing characters. Other situations are punishes which won’t happen often or a succesfull jumpin. We’ll see.

Anyway i haven’t addressed any of the normals she has but frankly, most of them are abysmal.


#35

I’m starting to think it won’t be buffs that help juri out it will be the nerfs to others.

Ryu players who think j.lk and jab will survive are delusional imho. Same with necallis jab and some of chuns stuff etc. It’s pretty obvious what stuff isn’t working as intended to me.


#36

Devil got banned


#37

How’d that happen?


#38

presidential thread bet.
he bet Hilary would win.


#39

Another idea regarding her v-skill:
Changes
[list]
[] Ability to cancel lk fireball release into her v-skill
[
] Ability to feint v-skill earlier
[/list]

Non-changes
[list]
[*] Charge time for full V-Skill stays the same
[/list]

This way she can get the charged v-skill more safely, it would allow her more unique pressure which will be restricted to only when she has a lk fireball available.
You have to decide between getting a charged v-skill or giving up the charged v-skill in favour of offense.

Unfortunately Capcom won’t allow changes which are reasonable AND fun.


#40

I bet wrong, but America will make DeeJuri great again.

As I expect I don’t imagine a lot of the stuff listed here Capcom will budge on. They usually have their own agenda and it may just be out of coincidence they fix something you were concerned about. Hsien Chang placing high at a big tournament (against big bad top tiers and outplacing day one launch mainers) only a couple months into her launch doesn’t bode well for her getting buffed greatly. Will probably just further instill the idea that they did a decent job.

Hopefully Lord Combofriend can push for some real power buffs for her, but knowing Capcom shes not going to get anything like V Skill on armor or plus one on block fireballs.