Juri in v2012

juri

#1

Direct Translation of changes, massive thanks to Juri board regular Deice for giving a direct translation of the changes with his powers of god tier Japanese:

Ill break some changes so that maybe in the grand scheme of things more people will understand each changes implication on future Juri play.

FSE Faster Forward Dash - Theres alot this particular change entails:

Not only does this travel fast but it also covers more distance, its actually possible on FADC to leave yourself at stupid +frames after cancelling a pinwheel (with its new updated properties) or fireball on block or hit.

This opens up a MASSIVE potential for increased damage because you no longer require a fireball to maintain pressure with 2 bars available, however with as much as 4 bars its not impossible to loop a punisher series all the way from one side of the corner to the other utalizing pinwheel FADC (god knows how many +frames you will be on factoring in the +5 extra on hit and faster forward dash).

It also has the potential to create new safe jump setups off throws (back or forward).

Ending your series in Sweep xx Store, means you can release for meaty fireball pressure, dash once in, throw out a move, and it will be a blockstring (im theorizing). Right now its near impossible to setup a blockstring off a meaty fireball without FADC, and youre never close enough to do proximity moves because the fireball pushs them back out of range. But having a faster dash that also covers more distance fixes both problems (proximity moves also come out faster) and makes for very good offensive pressure. If they backdash, the fireball tracks and hits them and you get to apply the same pressure again.

Focus Attack - Right now a common problem has been opponent making FA whiff by ducking under them with low forwards, because they tag you, you reflex and let go of FA only to eat a full punish. They have fixed this, so thank God for that.

Fuhajin Store Damage up to 50 - This was toned down in the transistion to AE from 50 to 30 with the introduction of store xx fireball release. What made this okay was that the damage from store +release was considered one move and damage didnt scale further down from consecutive hits, meaning in a way her damage was buffed from 50 to 80 (30 + 50), now the store to release combo nets Juri up to 100 damage (50 + 50).

Pinwheel +8/10 Frame Advantage on FADC - It used to be +3 on FADC, now its +8 (with the extra +5 added to it). Due to the first hit of Lk pinwheel only receiving the change, it will still be +1 on hit without FADC, +8 on the first hit FADC and +3 on the second hit FADC. This opens up much more new combo potential, as outlined in the change log you can even do Pinwheel FADC Ultra 2. The way this works is that Juri can cancel her forward dash into a special on the last two frames, bringing pinwheel FADC up to +10 on hit when inputing a special during the dash. Heres some combos that will be possible using this new tool:

Midscreen punish(2 bars) - Cr.Hp xx Hk Senpusha(2 hits) FADC Cr.Hp xx Hk Senpusha = 358dmg (418 from a J.Hk)

Midscreen punish(3 bars) - Cr.Hp xx Hk Senpusha(2 hits) FADC Cr.Hp xx Ex Senpusha = 386dmg (438 from a J.Hk)

(These are just the highest damaging examples, there are more practical applications like extended combos off basic hitconfirms with light attacks, and hit confirming a pinwheel buffered cr.mk into extra damage)

Midscreen Hitconfirm Ultra 2 - Cr.mk xx Hk Senpusha(2 hits) FADC Ultra 2 = 482dmg(aprox)

Midscreen Hitconfirm Ultra 1 - Cr.mk xx Hk Senpusha(2 hits) FADC Ultra 1 xx St.lk xx etc…

(both ultra combos are 1 frame links off the pinwheel FADC, made easier by reversal input leniancy, the st.lk off the ultra 1 is a legit 1 frame link when the ultra activation is timed at the earliest possible frame off the pinwheel FADC)


#2

i hope they dont change anything in terms of properties.

lk pinwheel 2nd hit whiffing on crouchers <= this is probably the only thing that needs fixing. even this can be circumvented by using the right normals at the right distances and cancelling into fuhajin kick for chip, not pinwheel.

damage-wise she can still be left alone, maybe if there’s a universal reduction in ultra damage she can take some too. as long as she’s up to par with everyone else.

as soon as the dev blogs are updated i’ll try to translate everything. i really hope there aren’t any major changes to anyone’s gameplay, only damage reduction overall for the top tiers.


#3

Sounds good man, much appreciated.

Shes solid mid tier with alot of the other cast, any buffs at this point should be considered a bonus, her best buffs will be the nerfs to the top tiers. Right now she suffers from numerous bad matchups, Honda, Bison, Sakura, Yang, Fei, Yun, Makoto, Rose, Chun, Sagat, probably a couple of others i cant think of, the state of things right now is that she has a very bad defence game with no real threat to the rush down and heavy frame traping/poking characters.

Matter of fact i cant think of alot of matchups bar her good ones that are actually legit 5-5, anybody thats put time into training mode specifically against the Juri matchup usually has ways of circumventing her wakeup game, reversal game and AA game, throw in a weak backdash to boot and even Dhalsim can have an easier time on defence than Juri.

Her matchups would be significantly better if Expinwheel were to get fully invincible (she now has a reversal game) on startup OR give her a 3 frame cr.lk, she does Tae Kwon Do ffs, Sim and Cody who have similar bad defence both have 3 frame shorts to compensate, its fucking godlike to have. It quite frankly sucks having a 3 frame proximity move because you never have it available when you think you do, get CH eat a beefy combo, great…

Also some fucking frame advantage on literally any normal would be nice to compensate for all the shit hitboxes she has.

/rant


#4

imo juri’s hardest matchups are akuma, honda and bison. barring the ridiculousness that yun, yang and fei bring in, the rest of the matches aren’t entirely terrible, esp rose, that’s a 6-4 in juri’s favor, so is sagat. we don’t have to get into the details here (wrong thread). i don’t think she has too many 6-4’s, out of 38 characters besides herself, she has a hard time with about a dozen characters. that’s not so bad.

i think not having an invincible reversal makes you play smarter (ex pinwheel is low / projectile invincible) and i’d personally prefer juri to stay a smart person’s character. all the pinwheel-mashing juri players quit after 1st week of super, and for those who stuck with her, an invincible reversal shouldn’t be on top of their wish list. like you said, it really is about the other characters’ nerfs that will define how much better she becomes.

juri’s cl.st.lk is 3 frames; cl.st.mk is 6 frames but airborne from the very first startup frame to avoid throws; cr.mk and cr.hk go low and avoid attacks. cr.mp is 6 frames but 6 frames active (ryu’s cr.mk was 6 frames active and he lost that, so one of the longest active normal in the game now), etc etc. i think this is better and far smarter than having a crouch-techable 3f cr.lk you just auto-pilot into mashing into a hit confirm combo. i honestly don’t think they designed juri’s gameplay around anything like that. whatever she has now is fine. when she debuted in super they could’ve fixed two things – walk speed and lk pinwheel 2nd hit whiff. they fixed one of them in AE.


#5

Yesssss, keep discussing bad matchups and Juri’s weaknesses please.


#6

I’m desperately hoping for more frame advantage on her normals. I would be so happy if she could do a low confirm into c.mp/c.mk. Similar to how Cammy can do short jab strong spiral arrow. Aside from more frame advantage, I’d also love a longer throw range and pinwheel being unthrowable.


#7

I couldnt disagree with this more. Thats the stance they took coming into AE. They need to fix Juri, not adjust anyone else and have her stay the same. This indirect/roundabout way of thinking will not work.

Among the things they MUST look at are her unambiguous jump attacks, her focus attack whiffing when logically it should hit, and mk/ex pinwheels that dont knockdown leaving Juri at a disadvantage because of shitty properties that have no business ever existing.
And those things shouldnt even really be debateable it should be common sense in fact.

Then the next step is to look at how she was designed. To hold a button down to store a fireball. This, I actually like. This is what makes Juri different and I enjoy playing because of this. But lets look at how they didnt take this fact into account for the rest of her properties. You hold a button down for a fireball and you lose an attack. Doesnt sound too bad until you look at her attack data(and how they all tie together).

By storing a lk FB, she loses her only 3 frame attack, which is already kept in check due to the distance they chose to limit it to. She loses her ability to throw-tech (technically she doesnt but lets be realistic). Her next fastest attacks are 4 frames, one of which is limited to distance and the other not only to distance but also standing opponents.

So one might think maybe your using the wrong special. Lets look at pinwheel. Why is it that another character that has similiar data on their unsafe special can actually space it to where they are too far away to punish if they use the right strenght? Why cant Juri do this? Thats just another option out of the window.And since Im on the topic of pw, lets talk about her dash. Why was 19 frames chosen? Pinwheel fadc leaves Juri @ +3, so that means she has only ONE attack that she can actually link. That is ONLY if you dont have a fireball stored. That just takes away ANOTHER option.

Lets look more at the dash.As stated before 19 frames…WHY? Ryu’s is 18 why was 1 frame longer chosen?No really, I want to know why? This means Juri will ALWAYS be 1 frame outside of her fastest normal, the lone range/fireball limited lk. Lets look at the focus attack dash cancel. The only way to follow a lvl2 FA safely is w/ a st.LK with no leeway, its a 1 frame block string. Which doesnt seem too outragous.What is outragous is the focus attack itself. Record this FA-dash fwd into LK to be a blockstring in training. Once you find the right timing, adjust the spacing(not the recording) just ONE pixel. All of a sudden your recording doesnt work anymore.You CANNOT consistently get this timing no matter how much you practice.

This is a combination of a shitty Focus attack and a shitty dash.Ryu’s focus not only actually works, but FA dashing fwd leaves him at +4 on block, so he has two frames to blockstring his 3 frame jab, or he has one frame to blockstring his plinkable 4 frame LK.(Thank you 18 frame dash)

Now you have FB store and counter left. Im not gonna go into these as this post is gonna end up too long. Fb store is limited by range and you are negative to boot.Counter is NO threat and only sole purpose is to get you outta dodge. As long as you aint in the corner you better off just mashing focus backdash.That is actually the safer option w/ the same result.

Then there is FSE…Im not gonna say much as Im sure you all know about normals stop working like far st.HK EVEN WHEN THEY ARE STANDING! Then there is the overhead which leaves you at +6, but on Balrog you cant connect a cr.MP even though you are in range

Okay Im just gonna stop. This shit is getting long and I aint even halfway there.

Arrrrgh…sigh…lol


#8

FIFY


#9

It’s a free update, so I don’t think they’re going to be making any big changes to anyone, other than maybe undoing big changes to certain characters such as Cammy. Juri got some good buffs in AE, but with the strongest characters in the game being stronger than compared to Super, I think her standing relative to them ended up being about the same as before. With version 2012, they might try to buff the whole cast up to the level of the top tier, in which case Juri would need some sort of buffs to stay competitive. She doesn’t need any new tools or anything to compete in character matchups, but it would be cool if she got more than just damage tweaks.

I was poking around in the SSF4/AE data, and I noticed that move animation speeds are actually tweaked by putting multipliers on certain parts of the animation. For example, the active frames of Juri’s cl.MP would normally start on the 7th animation frame, but there’s a 2x speed multiplier on the first 4 frames, making the active frames start on the 5th ‘actual’ animation frame. The FSE version of the move does not have a multiplier on those frames. This leads me to believe that when they were originally tweaking her frame data, they simply forgot to change values for the FSE versions as well. (Either that, or they just wanted corner resets to be harder…?) I would like for the FSE versions of cl.MP and cl.MK to be changed to have consistent animation speeds.

Concerning far st.HK, the normal hitbox height is 0.25, whereas with FSE activated, it’s 0.20. I suspect that they increased the hitbox height at some point and just forgot to change it for the FSE version. They could fix this normally, but it would be cool if they decreased FSE st.HK recovery instead so that it could be used to close distance more easily.

Another issue with FSE… why does it have to be so hard to combo into? With the amount of recovery they gave it, it pretty much only combos from a jump-in or a Fuhajin, and with the ridiculously long screen-freeze animation, hitting a link afterwards is a huge pain. I would like it if the camera zoom was more like Akuma’s U1, and maybe the actual recovery could be decreased as well.

I don’t really care if they increase EX Senpusha invincibility. It’s not like she doesn’t have a wakeup game, and it’s not like there aren’t other characters who have the same problem with their reversals. Her options are varied and useful, but they just carry some extra risk compared to some other characters. I’m guessing that was designed to be her Achilles’ heel.

Apart from that, some minor changes to her normals would be good. I wish cl.MK’s vulnerable hitbox moved off the ground like the animation does, but I guess that might be too good. cl.HP does do this, but it needs to be safer on block and have a slightly bigger active hitbox so it doesn’t whiff over crouchers. cl.HP being a proper anti-air would be a welcome change as well, as it would buff her anti-air damage significantly.

Edit: Her focus attack hitbox should be fixed. It doesn’t make sense to me that a character with slow walk speed and long dash range should have a bad focus attack hitbox.


#10

I want all of you to look at dr.grammar and HTX’s posts. They are not asking for silly things. They’re asking for their character to be complete. Thats fair.

Not asking for fucking FSE combos OFF A THROW! Silly shit man…

Anyways, great reads. I really like your view of the character. I think you get her very well.


#11

No Juri info. All Japanese.


#12

Its kinda difficult to translate what the translation is saying but you can try this:


http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/08/23_4052.html&ei=1h1TTvT7C8G_gQfx8Ngk&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.capcom.co.jp/blog/sf4/development_blog/2011/08/23_4052.html%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DxvN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divns

Forgive me, haven’t HTMLed in at least a decade.


#13

I guess I’m the only person who activates FSE off knockdowns?


#14

What? The question confuses me.


#15

Reading the changes made to Vega’s both ultras, I am hopeful they’ll treat Juri well.


#16

I have no idea what to make of the translation provided, ill wait till someone translates it properly and we can discuss it better.

edit: thank you eventhubs.

The changes so far are buffing the characters as opposed to nerfing them, as it stands all i can say is, if we dont get sufficient buffs in relation to what these characters are getting (read Chun, Sim, Gief of particular notice) its going to get alot harder for Juri in this iteration. The only nerfed character on that list is Viper, damage reductions and especially on her Ultra will probably make the matchup more laughable to win, gotta feel sorry for her.

Capcom are being really nice to alot of characters so far, they seem to give them what the people want, so i remain hopeful for what Juri will get, because she will need it to keep up with some of the buffs they are giving characters.


#17

It’s mostly really minor damage and frame data tweaks, undoing nerfs between Super and AE, and buffing up Ultras that are generally considered useless (Ryu’s Metsu Shoryuken and Viper’s Burning Dance). They added an extra frame of hitstun to some moves, like the 1st hit of Bison’s Double Knee Press. I’m hoping that means they might also add a frame or two of hitstun/blockstun to Juri’s Senpusha.


#18

Hhmm… how about making some of her links easier to do? I’m talking about her 1f links, FSE and stuff like fuhajin release xx FADC xx ultra 2.

Her focus attack needs to stop whiffing on so many shit that don’t make any sense.

Some FSE normals needs to be fixed like Mike explained in another post.

Dream buffs: Make Ultra 2 and HK Super viable anti-airs + make EX pinwheel a little more strike invincible and/or a bit safer on block. :slight_smile:


#19

Im pretty sure that tomorrows the day we get our changes, unfortunately with Honda’s Lp headbutt back that matchup just got abit worse so im hoping something gives for us.

This is unfortunately make or break, i seriously doubt they will touch SF4 again, the changes have to be so on point its untrue, i’ve had to live through her bullshit for more than a year now and though the burden was lessened in AE there was still so much comfort in playstyle missing. For example in regular Super I was rinsing Abel like shit loads, and everything just seemed to work in comparison to playing Juri, there was rarely a time where i had to make major adjustments (like using cr.lk against Akuma on Jumpins because of cr.lp whiffing on hitstun, it was only a minor adjustment at that) to my gameplan. There was just this fluid gameplay with a strong character on par with the rest of the strong characters and it just worked, similarly i tried learning Seth recently and that same fluid play is there with very little bullshit to put up with, stuff just works and if it doesnt it can be made to work.

Juri is on the opposite end of the spectrum, everything feels slow, uncertain, and unsafe, so much stuff just doesnt work, yesterday was a good example against a honda, i did after an overhead:

St.lk xx St.mp xx St.hk xx (hold on time to decide, damage or frame trap with lk pinwheel to continue pressure, okay lets go for the frame trap) LK PINWHEEL!!!..wtf it missed, i shit you not go to training mode, Honda on crouch and do that sequence, lk pinwheel the move that moves Juri the furthest forward in 7 frames whiffs on that hit stun animation, i then got it by jab x hands x roundhouse and i lost, GET SERIOUS! I’ll never do that again but thats absolute fucking balls, i said it before but ill say it again, something has to give.


#20

I wouldn’t feel sorry for Viper yet Mike, sounds like U1 will be even easier to land - hell, might even work as an AA.

But it is as I feared. Everyone is getting buffs to fight the top tiers, so mere fixes won’t do. Juri is going to need buffs to stand her ground, otherwise we’ll be worse off than Super.