Juri input needed for character stat project

Just looking for input on this in general, and for each character specifically.

As stated I’d like to keep discussion for each character in the separate threads I am making in their respective sub forums, and input on the idea in general in the above thread.

Also as stated, despite discussion in this thread being open to anyone it would help me separate the wheat from the chaff if each forum could appoint someone who knows what the hell they are talking about to give me the numbers to plug into my spread sheet.

My garbage numbers for Juri:

U1
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 3
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3.5
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 3
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 1

U2
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 3
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3.5
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 3
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 1

Other than the Endurance these are little more than place holder numbers. Input greatly appreciated.

The end result of all of this will be a spreadsheet with pull down menus to compare up to three characters like so:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2461/adonmak.jpg

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U1
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1.5
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 3.5
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 4
Dmg pot ----- 3.5
Viability ------- 1

U2
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1.5
AA ------------ 4
Zoning ------- 3.5
Rush --------- 1
Mix up -------- 2
Dmg pot ----- 2.5
Viability ------- 1

The higher numbers in the U1 section based purely on potential when the ultra is active.

Reversal wise, too high. She might push a 2, but her options are really bad here. If used wisely they can be OK/Good, but other than that…
All Possible AA’s: S.Jab, S.Forward, FS.Fierce, CS.Fierce, FS.Roundhouse L.Strong, L.Fierce, NJ.Forward, NJ.Roundhouse, NJ.Strong, NJ.Fierce, FJ.Strong, FJ.Fierce, Senpusha, Fuhajin Store, High Release, EX High Fuhajin. All can be used depending on situation… One of her strongest points.
Zoning: Add mid and low release regular and EX Fuhajins to those and she has quite a strong zoning game. However, the full animation to store and release a Fuhajin is very long (Zoning becomes much stronger once you already have a store.) and if you make a mistake in terms of where you release or when you start storing, things can get pretty bad.
Rushdown: Juri can be good for rushdown in bursts, but just straight up? you’re going to be taking a lot of not so good risks. Things change when Feng Shui is active, though…
Mixup: Same thing here too, really. She has some good mixups, some even very good but it gets very character specific and the risk/reward is so/so. Again, Feng Shui changes this.
Damage: Decent damage output, gets better with more meter. Short strings + Resets/Mixups lead to big, big damage in Feng Shui.
Viability: I’d say you got this right. Lots of very hard matchups, very complex character to learn, tonnes of character specific stuff, bad reversals etc etc. May move up to a 1.5/2 once 2012 hits, but we’ll have to wait and see.

AA was meant to be 4 not 4.5

my breakdown:

U1
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 2
Mix up -------- 2
Dmg pot ----- 4
Viability ------- 2.5

U2
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 1
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 2
Mix up -------- 1
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 2

Strangely enough you pretty much got all the numbers very near what i see Juri as even after maining her for this long, ill justify each field accordingly.

Endurance: Easy enough, followed the guidelines on your thread.

Reversal: Options are between expinwheel and excounter, both require 1 meter to perform, expinwheel requires 2 more meters to FADC and puts her at frame disadvantage after dashing both forward and back.

Expinwheel at higher levels of tournament play is very easy to bait, often good players develop trade setups to trade with expinwheel and get heavy combos off of it. It also doesnt cause knockdown on inital hits so baiting to hit out stretched limbs (like a fireball) is easy, this pushs the opponent back to neutral where they can block and punish the remainder of the pinwheel. Its invincibility is very limited, the move isnt airborn so it can be grabbed aswell and the move lasts a long time while being blocked so the opponent has plenty of time to check their meters and adjust the best possible punish (usually raw ultra) which makes this reversal option heavy on the risk low on the reward(sub par damage into techable knockdown with no Oki).

Excounter is an armoured move and basically a glorified focus backdash/forward dash. It has no invinciblity after triggering the “teleport”, hitting Juri with a fireball and a normal simultainously will beat her out of the teleport outright as the first move will trigger the dash and the second move instantly hits her out of it. It can also be grabbed, armour broken, and reacted to on teleport trigger. In the corner ambiguous crossups will auto correct the dash and Juri will often dash in place.

AA - Good normals for keeping opponents out of the air, none are invincible so good air normal priority will still beat Juri’s AA options (Sakura’s J.Hp, Honda’s J.Mp and Chun’s J.Hp/Hk to name a few), she also has no option for anti airing crossup moves and none of her AA’s lead to big damage or reset potential.

Zoning - Juri can zone well with her fireballs which offer low recovery times and her AA suppliments this well. Her zoning has minor rewards as each fireball does only 50 damage and requires a charge which creates anticipation before release, this can also limit her options if they remain charged if your opponent gets in. The only high reward zoning Juri can do is using Hk fireball juggle into Super which can also be quite tricky.

Rush - Juri has little to no rush down game with very few moves that put her at frame advantage and a lack of knockdowns that provide an Oki game, she has an airborn overhead for getting over delayed crouch techs but the damage is low and the move is relatively slow. Her divekick can also blowup crouch techs and can be confirmed into expinwheel for more damage, but on block is unsafe and can be tricky to execute properly close to the ground. Other notable tools include crossup mk and lk with a narrow jump arch for fitting crossups into strings, a kara grab with decent range, and a good frame trapping fireball game only limited to the corner.

Mixup - Much like rushdown Juri has no mixup game, she has a limited high/low mixup game with her overhead and instant overhead fuzzy guard setups (which only work reliably on a small fraction of the cast). This is only slightly improved in Ultra 1 state where she can combo off her overhead for big damage and gains more reset potential (can reset off expinwheel in the corner and close hp midscreen for example), but ultimately still suffers to predictability and penalties such as no stun or meter gain.

**Dmg pot - **Good punish options for 1 meter with poke into expinwheel, very little damage options for 2 and 3 meters (which requires a fireball charged to do a FADC combo).

**Viability - **Personal opinion based on all ive outlined above.

Ive played the character since release, so im quite a trusted source.

you really don’t rate feng shui, hey mike? haha.

Its got alot of “bullshit” though realistically, not gna write an essay on it but it only works effectively against just over half the cast and is a much more inferior version of Yun’s Genei Jin or Yang’s Seiei enbu (w.e is called) which is what id rather it be more like. Juri’s moveset doesnt really work all that well with the FSE mechanic fundamentally because of the descrepancy between far and close moves, throw in different characters hitstun and blockstun animations and you just get a whole mess of things that go wrong on a ultra that already requires execution, spacial precision and risk to pull off properly.

can’t really argue with any of that, yet whilst all being true…it’s soooo good lol
each to their own :slight_smile:

also, would you mind having a look in the matchup thread? if you haven’t already. i proposed a mini-redo of which any help, opinions or extra questions for proposed legend would be much appreciated :slight_smile:

Not really interested unfortunately lol matchups are depressing to talk about in Juris case.

Fse is highly viable and is highly underrated on a professional level. I find it to be one of the most ridiculous things put in sf4.

Agreed. Juri has a ton of dead even and hard match ups. Plus the game is more rush down oriented and juri has no effective and safe get off me move.
Also juri is too situational. Everything she does relies on certain parameters and conditions ie spacing to aa and having to bnb/frame trap to stock with no risk.

Mm, i keep telling people that Juri cant really have a good matchup in AE, usually the stuff that make people think its a bad matchup is easily worked around with something else. Bad matchups are plentiful though…yay?

intention was to be less about discussion of matchups and more about compiling data + adding a few new finds to make it easier for juris to find everything in one thread. this way if someone needed to know something about a matchup quickly, it was all there to see and people won’t have to dig through 3 or 4 different threads for stuff. looking less and less useful, though, as apparently there’s only something like 4 people that post in these parts? lol.

Go into detail please, it would help more.

If u like a challenge. But fei does half the work without much effort.

This thread pretty much shows that this graph thing got some serious issues. Everyone filling this out will end up with FSE having a noticeably higher rating, yet Top Players (eg Juicebox) and upcoming Patchnotes (Hi mass FSE buffs) tell a largerly different story.

Makes no sense at all. Ratings for Juri with both ultras so there’s no bias. A u2 user in Mike even gave her higher ratings in FSE (she does become a better character… so it kind of makes sense?). FSE buffs will make the point even more valid, and I don’t understand the Juicebox reference? He uses u2, which proves?

o_O

What I’m saying is: This rating makes it look like U1 is significantly better than U2, which is simply wrong.
If anything, there should be two different ratings, once “standard Juri” and once with FSE activated (NOT simply picked);
as right now fe the “Damage potential” of U1 is listed as if youre running combos like crazy (potential, duh), but U2 doesn’t seem to be rated as “hitting” whatsoever. Simpler put: The FSE numbers seem to be best case ones, while the KD numbers seem to be worst case ones.

Mike rates FSE Juri as more viable than KD Juri which would basically mean those FSE buffs in V.2012 are totally out of place (or at least: She’d need even bigger buffs to U2), that the majority of top Juri players is wrong (No I don’t have actual numbers, but I’m pretty sure that more people use U2) and himself playing with U2 would be completly confused.

Well to clarify i use both ultras, Ultra 1 excels on pretty much any character without a teleport, i dont know why teleport characters choose to sit in their spot without mashing on shortcut input teleport, it literally gets out for free and if theres any risk involved its totally minimal. Other than that your right in that it does increase her stats mixup and damage wise, everything else is still the same deal. Ultra 2 doesnt do worlds of damage either at the end of combos, it doesnt add a good wakeup option so i completely disregard that, its not a good AA(anyone can tell u this) and your zoning game doesnt benefit from having it in stock, so obviously the stat increases for Ultra 1 are going to be higher than Ultra 2.

not being a juri pro here, but I’ve played her enough (like about nearly every character in the game) to make a point:
a mixup of 1 means she has NOTHING. her pw fadc, comboable overhead, quick forward dash, crossup, counter mixup, stored fuha etc she has way more mixup then many characters in the game. why do people always make their own characters look way more worse then it really is? I’d say this is more reasonable:

U1
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 2
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 4
Mix up -------- 3.5
Dmg pot ----- 3
Viability ------- 2.5

U2
Endurance - 2
Reversal ---- 2
AA ------------ 3
Zoning ------- 3
Rush --------- 3
Mix up -------- 3
Dmg pot ----- 3.5
Viability ------- 2.5

Makes much more sense now. Sounded more like an FSE bash before, lol. In reality, neither ultra should be considered into the chart to make it as realistic as possible but I guess maybe some might rely on the comeback factor of the ultras (FSE users inc) so he deems it necessary to include ultras. I’d definitely agree with you about U2 users being more prominent, but alot of that is due to lack of knowledge, or the lack of being able to use it well rather than specifically just choice like Mike for example.

Right ill address a couple of the points you bring up aswell:

“your stats make U1 look godlike compared to U2, its not as if your using it every round” - But i am using it every round(the majority of the time), and just using it every round means the stats are there, we arent going to play theory fighter on this, but provided i can pop it as soon as i get it, the conceptual mixup and damage potential is there, and thats what this dude is asking for. Its no more guarenteed than U2.

“You havnt even considered U2 as a move in your stats, are you sure its hitting?” - Yeah i have, and pretty much all of the ultra 2 setups are gimp in some way, not gna go into that. also read my above post on how it doesnt really contribute to any other stat in the chart even just by having it.

“Mike thinks U1 > U2” - No i think both have their uses in matchup specific situations.

“But theres more top Juri players that use U2 than U1 so U2 must be better” - Well Yun is way better than any other character in the game, why ask this question when the better question is why arent we all just playing Yun?

…why not just play Yun guys?