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sagat

#1

Hey all, well recently I’ve been going through a character identity crisis (also known as J-Wong Syndrome) and I’ve finally come to Sagat after about 15 different mains, who I’ve stuck with for a good 3 weeks now and am planning to from now on.

I consider myself an OK player, far from good but I have a good understanding of the game, execution is not a problem etc. etc. Anyway, I have a few questions that I wanted to ask you people (I would normally post in the FAQ section, but these boards seem quite inactive and dead, which is sad considering Sagat is such a good character :’( )

I have always played offensive characters, and I thought people playing Sagat were lame, boring and dull (please excuse my ignorance) but anyway, I have been grinding out working on my zoning. A few things that have caught my attention when looking at back some of my fights against good people. Often, I will wait patiently, throwing a mixed combination of heavy/light low tigers, mixed with heavy/light high tigers ( I never use the medium variation of the attack, is this bad?) Anyway, when zoning, often I will try to get a general feel of the opponent, getting myself into ranges where if I know they are going to jump, I can st.hk or AA TU however against some people, this is just not working out for me. I will stay patient for a long time, throwing out normals to try and bait a jump, but it doesn’t come…but the moment I throw a tiger shot, I eat a jump-in and it’s really demoralising lol. Also when playing against people who are just plain-out random, I struggle a lot. I will AA a lot and I eventually move back, thinking they surely won’t jump in again after eating about 5 AA’s in a row, but they do and I get hit with some dumb shit. I can do all of Sagat’s combos, I have been watching my matches back looking where I have gone wrong and tried to work on it, but I really don’t know how I can improve.

How can you improve your fireball game, is it possible to “work on” your fireball game without simply playing a lot of matches, and over time naturally you adjust and your game gets better? I have also been watching a few Sagat’s to try and pick up on how they are playing such as Bonchan and Mago, as well as others like Jiji (whose game I like a lot) and EmblemLord (also a very nice game). So my question to fellow Sagat players, is how do I improve my fireball game as well as controlling space. Obviously zoning has never been a strong-point of mine having used characters like Rufus and Akuma (I could zone, but not to the extent Sagat needs to) so yeah. Any tips on what to do when getting started, how to improve etc. would be much appreciated. I’ll hopefully try and save some replays of matches I had against good people up so you guys can critique it in much more detail than I could. I wouldn’t normally post but I’m really looking to get my Sagat better, as well as getting my ass to a few more tournaments around the UK and Europe for that matter but I currently suck too much and IMO would be a waste of money trying to go a tournament. Once again any input would be much appreciated. If there are any UK players on here on XBL I would also be happy to get some games in.
Thanks again.
Faz


#2

The best way to learn it, like you said is to just play and play and play. Learn what to do at what range and who you need to keep farther way and such. When they get into that dead zone where its unsafe to throw out a TS or TK, st. Mk works as a good poke unless you are confident enough to just sit until they decide to come to you.

One of my tips i can throw out there as far as learning the timing on the shots and recovery is to go into training mode and just chuck plasma for a bit to see the speed and your recovery for each different shot.


#3

^good advice.

btw:

HTS = High Tiger Shot
LTS =** L**ow Tiger Shot

Fundamentally, you must know that high tiger can be avoid by low slides like rose/vega/dhalsim, etc. Opponents can also avoid HTS by simply crouching. The benefit though is that HTS has a faster recovery than LTS (by a few frames I believe?) and against other fireball characters like Ryu, you can basically just dominate them by pure HTS spam.

LTS is a bit slower recovery then HTS but it will hit any opponent that is standing or crouching. Be wary: some characters can just simply destroy LTS (Honda’s fucking head charge thing.) and just beat the shit out of you.

Though it is true that you learn more as you keep on playing but honestly, it is almost matchup based.

The reason why I say learning to fireball/zoning game is matchup based is because some characters have options that high crush/low crush specific tiger shots (High crush = invulnerable to high attacks like High Tiger Shot. Low crush = invulnerable to low attacks. A term taken from Tekken).

For example: Generally you want to LTS Cammy all day. If you do an HTS, she can do her cannon spiral to avoid your HTS and just hit you for free. Very annoying to deal with. Also, once she has ultra meter (for ultra 1) throwing a fireball at that point and onwards (til ultra meter is gone) is risky and asking for death. She can ultra 1 you on reaction and can get you at half a screen away JUST because you chuck a fireball.

On characters such as Rose/Dhalsim/Vega/etc, they can slide under your HTS. Blanka is the biggest bitch because he can slide under ALL of your fireballs, therefore you have to be cautious about throwing a fireball on said characters (Unless you have balls of steel and have ABSOLUTE confidence that you can throw one without being fucked).

And fuck demon flips, dives and jump ins. Be careful of being predictable: throw too many tigers and they can time their jump with your fireballs so you can eat a fresh combo for a whooping price of 10%-30% of your health right there. No discounts.

Some people (like me) throw fireballs in a way to catch some foos. If you have a wall jumpy Vega for example, he can block an LTS and do his flying barracuda bullshit to avoid the second LTS (if you were to chuck one out RIGHT after the the last LTS) which… kinda should be in your favour really. Anyways, what you can do instead is throw a LTS and throw a HTS instead. If he tries to walldive barrabullshit the second tiger shot, he is going to get hit by the HTS (always).

So:
LTS, LTS = Vega can avoid the second TS with a wall-dive
LTS, HTS = Vega cannot avoid the second TS with a wall-dive.

The same setup can be used to catch people from jumping (on all characters I believe). Hell, once you get the feel of zoning, you can literally throw a LTS and a timed slow HTS and they jump into it (Free ultra 2 btw I think).

On the first example, I told you that Cammy can react to your fireball via ultra 1. She is not the only one who can do it:

Can react with:
Ultra 1:
Abel
Balrog
Cammy
Chun Li
Claw
Dictator
Dudley
E Honda
Dee Jay
Rose (within range)
Sagat
Seth

Ultra 2
Adon
Gen (air ultra)
Guile (within range)
Sagat
Yang

Not sure about the range/other factors like limited range?:
Dan’s Ultra 1
Cody’s Ultra 2?
El Fuerte’s Ultra 1
Fei Long’s Ultra 1 (Close)
Hakan Ultra 1

on the very last note: watch out for guys who aren’t afraid of you and focus absorb your fireballs and dash in to close the distance between you and him. By technically nullifying your fireballs are the cost of partial damage (damage that can be recovered), he can potentially get in his comfortable range (like balrog or something) and can potentially fuck you up.

Punish him with pokes or EX TS and he HAS to respect your fireballs. meaning you can start chucking fireballs against like its going out of style.

So basically, you want to be wary of throwing fireballs at all times. But when you do fireballs, the main point is to either apply pressure (and make them jump) or to catch them jumping with a fireball trap (either they land on the fireball or you tiger fucking uppercut their ass out of the air). Knowing the matchup on who you can throw your fireballs at and when you can throw one will be the difference between a good player and the rest of the idiots out there.

I think I’m right, its based off my experiences and all of this will come naturally to you as you play so don’t feel too pressured.


#4

Hey all, thank you for the replies, much appreciated.
Well I have been experimenting in Training Mode and been messing around with the timing for a Kara TU after a lp.HTS which will be very useful. I was having a FT10 with a sick Sak player yesterday, and took me a while to adjust to the jumping tatsu bullshit, but after about 4 games I found f+hk to be awesome. Also, he was jumping in at a very awkward range, a range at which st.hk would be stuffed clean, and either I wasn’t inputting the TU correctly or the j.hk stuffed it clean, most probably the first one but I’ll just blame online for that because I’m too scrubby.

I also ask, is there an updated Matchup thread anywhere? Been looking around and not been able to find it, been looking specifically for the Cody matchup as I was playing TR Sheva yesterday who fucked me over really bad with the frame traps, although I did take a few rounds off him after sweating my ass off. Also wanted to look at some of the less familiar matchups such as Vega etc…so if there is an updated MU thread which is there and I am not looking hard enough I would appreciate it if someone linked me to it. Apart from that it’s all good, thanks for the advice guys and I will bear all that you said in mind. Finally taking this game seriously after about a few months of derping around and hovering around the same skill level…lol.


#5

A major part of getting good with Sagat is being comfortable with his other elements at mid and close range. It’s just as important if not more so than being a good zoner. Everyone from scrub to high level can throw Tiger shots and use his AA, it’s old school SF2 basics. Someone who is an average zoner but comfortable in all areas of the screen will do better than a good zoner who’s not.

Learn his normals and the effective ranges, learn his push back block strings, learn TK pressure strings and above all else , learn to be patient in a tight spot. Because believe me, of all the supposed top tier characters in this game , your ass is going to be in tight spots 5 times as many as the other ones. It’s one of the frustrating things about playing the King.

Watch Bonchan video’s for a good all rounder. He’s very comfortable with Sagat all over the screen.

One final thing, online is very hard to run an effective zone with Sagat, don’t beat yourself up too much.


#6

some quick tips:

glad you mentioned above finally starting to use f.hk, it takes a little bit to learn to anticipate the jump in, and learn the spacing to make it hit, but once you do, its a free 2x f.HK damage if you catch em high, or a free ultra if you have one stocked.

also remember that trade TU always leads to ultra, don’t let that opportunity for free damage pass you by.

learn to love cr. lk (read consolidated faq to understand how powerful this is), and cr. lp x LTS is a great way to build some space. cr.lp xx TK/TU is a great punish for moves with 4 frames of recovery.

one of the most profound posts on the board was a poster expressing frustration with poke range, saying they knew what to do effectively at long range and up close, but were getting their buttons eaten alive at poke range. the answer was simple: don’t do anything. stop pressing buttons.

Sagat’s biggest enemy is patience. we think were doing something wrong by chucking plasma all day, and want to do some fancy rushdown or combos, and end up pressing too many/wrong buttons.

throw shit all day, if they don’t want to move, make em take chip until you have enough of a life lead to make em move. then be patient, and choose your spots wisely, and remember it doesn’t take much with 'gat’s damage output.


#7

I strongly support Hellbox’s theory of throw shit all day. I don’t even care if I eat a jump in early. I want my opponent to know I’m going to throw these long range pokes(because that’s what fireballs are) and I want him to know he has to always be doing something, jumping, blocking, focusing or reacting with fireballs.

The more fireballs you throw the more likely your opponent will be faked out by whiffed normal baits and crouch/stand bait.


#8

I’ve been taking that into consideration. Today all I did was spam the fuck out of fireballs lol, tbh a lot of people can’t handle it. But I have a friend who plays Ibuki and unfortunately this shit doesn’t work on him. I find her far too hard to fight. Once she gets a knockdown it’s game over. Does a fireball game even work against her? I’m trying to mix it up and AA effectively but I’m having a lot of trouble in doing so, that sj.lk I think? really puts me off. It has a weird as hell arc and once I’m knocked down I might as well put my stick down. I eat 2 consecutive kunai mixups after trying to black, 50% health down. Try an auto-correct uppercut 3rd time but it gets stuffed. At this point I’m stunned, a nice level 3 focus combo to finish me off. Game over lol. To be quite honest, this matchup has always bothered me, but was manageable with my other mains. This is becoming a real bummer atm. I will work on it however. I also appreciate a lot of the replies, it has been quality advice and helped me immensely. Thank you again.

Is there an updated MU thread btw? It would help me out so much lol.


#9

yerp, ibuki is a tough fight, her buttons are damn good and with 'gets dump truck sized hit box, one knockdown means you can lose.

Here’s a good resource: emblemlord did some pretty extensive match write-ups in a blog, read up and I hope it helps.

My one piece of advice is if you’re staying away, ibuki is looking for you to throw the lazy high TS so she can slide and get the knockdown, especially if she has ex. anticipate, block, and punish, preferably with a cr.lp xx TU or TK to knock em in the corner to get positioning, and try and work some mixup on the knockdown. hope that helps.

I wish some updated matchup info was more consolidated, some of the stuff in the sticky up above is still from vanilla. the taking your gat to the next level and updated matchup thread do have some info, just takes a little digging.


#10

Yeah, might sit down tomorrow and have a good read. All in all Sagat is really fun, can be very frustrating sometimes when you come up against a Ryu who is willing to be equally as lame as you are, but winning the match is oh so pleasing. I have also been watching some Bonchan Sagat matches, he makes that shit look too easy man. He practically owns the screen, he might as well have his name written all over it.


#11

(The following obviously depends on what character you are facing and may be redundant. It’s my experience after 3 years playing against mostly ryu)
If this is at the infamous range where sagats start crapping themselves (a tad closer than midrange) I can understand your issues. If they are able to jump at you at that distance with fair consistency you are too predictable I think. The most typical way in which I ate a jump in at this range was me doing s.lp/c.lp(bait), wait 1-2 seconds followed by another s.lp/c.lp (bait), then a low tiger shot at which point my opponent is already in the air smiling. For the longest time now I have avoided throwing fireballs at that range until I have conditioned my opponent by anti-airing every single jump in attempt at that range. My baits have been more convincing (the occasional quick crouch at times when you really would like to throw a fireball can work wonders) and I’m more comfortable with poking at that range with occasionally throwing high higher shots (due to shorter recovery).
Simply, never throw a fireball at medium-close range (or at least use with extreme caution) until you have conditioned your opponent, bait by quick-crouching somewhat regularly, especially at times where you’d really like to throw a fireball.

After you have conditioned your opponent the grind starts as you’ll no longer get any easy anti-air damage, even though you can throw fireballs more liberally.

If anything, playing Sagat makes you extremely sensitive to when people want to jump at you.


#12

<blockquote class=“Quote”>
<div class=“QuoteAuthor”><a href="/profile/21111/Faz">Faz</a> said:</div>
<div class=“QuoteText”>Hey all, well recently I’ve been going through a character identity crisis (also known as J-Wong Syndrome) and I’ve finally come to Sagat after about 15 different mains, who I’ve stuck with for a good 3 weeks now and am planning to from now on.<br>
<br>
I consider myself an OK player, far from good but I have a good understanding of the game, execution is not a problem etc. etc. Anyway, I have a few questions that I wanted to ask you people (I would normally post in the FAQ section, but these boards seem quite inactive and dead, which is sad considering Sagat is such a good character <img src="/plugins/Emotify/design/images/20.gif" alt=":’(" title=":’(" class=“bbcode_smiley” height="" width=""> )<br>
<br>
I have always played offensive characters, and I thought people playing Sagat were lame, boring and dull (please excuse my ignorance) but anyway, I have been grinding out working on my zoning. A few things that have caught my attention when looking at back some of my fights against good people. Often, I will wait patiently, throwing a mixed combination of heavy/light low tigers, mixed with heavy/light high tigers ( I never use the medium variation of the attack, is this bad?) Anyway, when zoning, often I will try to get a general feel of the opponent, getting myself into ranges where if I know they are going to jump, I can st.hk or AA TU however against some people, this is just not working out for me. I will stay patient for a long time, throwing out normals to try and bait a jump, but it doesn’t come…but the moment I throw a tiger shot, I eat a jump-in and it’s really demoralising lol. Also when playing against people who are just plain-out random, I struggle a lot. I will AA a lot and I eventually move back, thinking they surely won’t jump in again after eating about 5 AA’s in a row, but they do and I get hit with some dumb shit. I can do all of Sagat’s combos, I have been watching my matches back looking where I have gone wrong and tried to work on it, but I really don’t know how I can improve.<br>
<br>
How can you improve your fireball game, is it possible to “work on” your fireball game without simply playing a lot of matches, and over time naturally you adjust and your game gets better? I have also been watching a few Sagat’s to try and pick up on how they are playing such as Bonchan and Mago, as well as others like Jiji (whose game I like a lot) and EmblemLord (also a very nice game). So my question to fellow Sagat players, is how do I improve my fireball game as well as controlling space. Obviously zoning has never been a strong-point of mine having used characters like Rufus and Akuma (I could zone, but not to the extent Sagat needs to) so yeah. Any tips on what to do when getting started, how to improve etc. would be much appreciated. I’ll hopefully try and save some replays of matches I had against good people up so you guys can critique it in much more detail than I could. I wouldn’t normally post but I’m really looking to get my Sagat better, as well as getting my ass to a few more tournaments around the UK and Europe for that matter but I currently suck too much and IMO would be a waste of money trying to go a tournament. Once again any input would be much appreciated. If there are any UK players on here on XBL I would also be happy to get some games in.<br>
Thanks again.<br>
Faz</div>
<br>Just because you think tournaments is going to be a waste of time you can go out to a tournament before it starts & run some casuals you know you can jump on an xbox/ps3 & learn match up’s set up’s what your doing wrong/right all kinds of things than when you get confident in your ability you can enter into tournaments & hopefully win i would like to play with you but your on the other side of the galaxy lol but i’m in NYC also looking at videos of top players like lionhart sanford kelly ryan hart long island joe & see how they play sagat wht they do in certain situations i also think mago still plays sagat <br></blockquote>