Kara-canceling the Flash Chop

This isn’t a really advanced technique but since I see no mention of it in the Alex forum I figured that maybe not many know about it? I see people discussing kara-power bomb, which I think is technically impossible, but I’ve never seen anyone post about kara Flash Chop here. If you already knew about it, think about this before you flame: I’m just trying to share stuff and help out the community here.

Obviously, this tutorial assumes you’re familiar with the basics of kara-canceling moves. If you don’t, go read the article about kara-throwing on shoryuken.com.

How do you perform it?

It’s quite easy, really. Most Alex users already know that Alex’s best kara move is toward fierce because it moves you forward so much. However in this case it isn’t the most effective normal to kara since Alex’s Flash Chop doesn’t really need that extra range and is rather slow.

Ever tried kara-throwing with standing roundhouse instead of toward fierce? That’s right, it actually moves Alex backwards (Makoto can do this too). Indeed, Standing Roundhouse is a great anti-throw move since it moves Alex’s sprite back very quickly, but it isn’t very useful since it has bad recovery (-13 on block). But there’s a way to keep those benefits with a much better risk/reward ratio.

You can kara his Flash Chop with standing roundhouse by just doing 236 + HK, P (or down, down/toward, toward, roundhouse, punch). To make sure you don’t miss it, you can even press roundhouse and then double tap whatever punch button you’re using. It’s better to use the strong version of his Flash Chop here, I’ll explain why later on.

As expected, what this does is move Alex back a lot before performing his Flash Chop. This is so much better than a regular standing roundhouse because:

  1. strong Flash Chop is super safe (-1 on block).

  2. you can get much more damage with its follow-ups.

Why is it useful?

Say you’re playing against someone who’s very fond of teching throws. Everytime you empty jump at him he’ll throw/tech, and it’s pissing you off because there isn’t all that much you can to do punish him when you’re not charging stomps while jumping. The Flash Chop start-up animation moves you back a bit, but sadly not enough to dodge throws after landing -you’ll get thrown out of the start-up frames.

Instead, try jumping at him and immediately performing a kara-flash chop upon landing. Because of the angle of your jump, it’ll look like you’re in throw range when in fact you really aren’t. Therefore, if he tries to throw you, he’ll get hit because the kara moves you too far back and the Chop will catch him during his whiff throw animation. This prevents your opponent from going into automode defense or he’ll get badly punished.

It’s important to keep in mind that the spacing is different on all characters. Pulling this off against Hugo isn’t easy, but it’s not hard at all against characters with shorter throw ranges.

Basically, this works with any kind of throw baiting setups, like low short, standing jab or whiff close standing forward after knockdowns. Empty jumping is just the most common one.

Why should I use strong Flash Chop rather than other versions?

Because it’s the best speed/damage compromise here. You can’t tackly any damage after jab flash chop and fierce flash chop is a tad bit slow considering it only does 1 point of damage more than the strong version.

Strong Flash Chop + follow-ups do sick damage for just baiting a throw! Try these, they are the most practical IMHO:

Kara strong Flash Chop, fierce Power Bomb: 48 damage*

Kara strong Flash Chop, close standing forward X jab Flash Chop: 47 damage*

Kara strong Flash Chop, close standing forward X EX Flash Chop: 57 damage*

Kara strong Flash Chop, close standing forward XX Boomerang Raid: 65 damage*

Kara strong Flash Chop, Hyper Bomb: 79 damage*

*On Ryu.

Is it -really- worth learning?

Yes, because it doesn’t even require good execution skills. It’s about as hard to perform as a regular kara-throw.

Learning this technique can also improve your game because it works very well with Alex’s high guessing game. Once you got them scared of throwing/teching, they’re likely to take one of the following actions:

Block - This is obviously really good for you since you get free throws/power bombs and get to start your infernal guessing game.

Jump-away - This is also good for you because you’re getting them toward the corner.

Obviously it doesn’t make Alex top tier at all, but it makes you much more of a threat if you can get around 30% damage just for baiting a throw without even wasting meter.

Hope that helps a few fellow Alex players out there.

Thanks for the heads up! I honestly never thought it would be useful until I read the entire thing, but it seems worth it, considering I do a lot of jump-ins with Alex. I will give it a serious go.

Super Jump canceling the Flash Chop

This is another Flash Chop trick that I know of but unfortunately it doesn’t look like you can combine both of them (since you can’t cancel out a super jump animation with a normal such as standing roundhouse). I personally don’t use this one as much because it takes better timing and execution to set up efficiently, but it’s really tricky if you can pull it off.

This post assumes you’re familiar with super jump canceling.

How to perform it?

Again, it’s quite simple. It works exactly like a regular tiger knee motion: 2349 + P (down, down/toward, toward, toward/up + punch). Through this motion you hit the required directions to initiate a super jump, but because of the imput leeway in 3s you still get the Flash Chop to come out. You have to perform it quickly though, since you only have a few frames to perform the cancel. As explained in the previous post it’s usually better to use the strong Flash Chop for this trick.

Why is it useful?

As you may already know, super jumps aren’t instant in 3s. There’s a “pre-super jump” animation (whose length differs depending on the character) during which you can be hit by ground moves but cannot be thrown by normal, command and super throws. That pre-super jump animation can be canceled by specials and supers (see twins/Chun/12 super jump super cancels), which is why the Flash Chop will come out even after the super jump has been initiated. Therefore, it adds a short period of time before the Flash Chop starts coming out during which Alex cannot be thrown.

Contrary to the above trick that works mostly because of range, this one is all timing. The relevant figures in this situation are the following:

Regular throw frame data

Start-up frames: 3
Active frames: 1
Recovery frames: 21

Alex specific frame data

Strong Flash Chop start-up frames: 16
Super jump start-up frames: 6*

*Note: It is unknown how many pre-super jump animation frames are cancelable into specials exactly.

Now, let’s take the exact same scenario as above. You’re jumping in trying to bait a throw, and immediately perform a super jump cancelled Flash Chop after landing:

If your opponent tries to throw you, his throw will whiff entirely since you have already entered pre-super jump animation before it comes out. It almost looks as if Alex is dodging the throw and crouching, but he’s really just initiating a super jump. If you manage to succesfully cancel the pre-super jump animation into Flash Chop, you’ll hit your opponent out of his whiffed throw recovery frames. This is really tricky because you actually are within throw range, yet the opponent still cannot throw you.

This is better than kara-canceling the Flash Chop because you can pull it off right next to your opponent, so that makes it easier to use any kind of follow-ups. With the method mentioned in my first post, sometimes you’ll be a bit out of range for certain follow-ups if you misjudge the distance on your jump-in.

Why is it difficult to master?

The main drawback is that you must be really consistent with this before you can start using it. Two cases of potential failure can easily happen:

  1. You miss the super jump cancel, and get a regular Flash Chop to come out. This is pretty bad because you can get thrown out of that move quite easily.

  2. You miss the leeway window and can’t cancel the pre super jump animation in time. This isn’t quite as bad as case 1) since at least you don’t get thrown and are off the ground but still, it means you’ve just taken a useless risk.

You must absolutely match your pre-jump animation frames with the opponent’s only active throw frame, otherwise you will fail. Also note that Alex can still be thrown during the Flash Chop start-up frames if his opponent decides to delay his throw (AFAIK, this does NOT create unthrowable start-up, it only creates a few unthrowable frames BEFORE the Flash Chop starts coming out).

Therefore this technique requires pretty good timing. The payoff is huge however, as detailed in the previous post. Again, it’s not -that- useful, but every bit helps I guess! That’s it for now!

Super Jump canceling the Flash Chop

good job !


Here are a few more tidbits about super jump canceling specials if you’re interested:

It works for lots of other specials in the game too, but most of the time it’s really impractical. It can be useful with Alex’s Flash Chop because the motion is easy and the payoff huge. But if you want to have some fun, you can try this too:

Super jump cancelled Power Bomb: 632147 + P (hcb, up/back, punch)

If you set it up properly their throw goes right through you and you’ll grab them out of their whiff throw animation. If you’re paying attention, you’ll even see the beginning of the pre-super jump animation frames before the power bomb starts coming out. It works with Yun/Yang/Q command throws. It even works with fireball specials but that seems useless. It’s really the same principle as super jump super canceling stuff like Chun’s close standing roundhouse into SA2 or Yun’s close standing forward into SA3, except you don’t use a super jump cancelable normal here.

For further proof of the unthrowable properties of pre-super jump animation frames, you can try this:

  1. Have a dummy Chun-Li perform a close standing roundhouse super jump cancelled into SA2.

  2. Parry the close standing roundhouse and try to throw her immediately, so that the throw comes out -before- the super freeze (it doesn’t work if the throw comes out after the super freeze, since the super itself isn’t immune to throws).

  3. She won’t get grabbed because she’s still in pre-super jump animation, and you’ll eat the super because you’re stuck in whiffed throw animation.

Also note that if you get hit by a ground normal during your pre-super jump animation, your character will still be considered on the ground (and your opponent can continue whatever combo he was performing as if you didn’t initiate a super jump). Therefore, this shows that pre-super jump animation frames are a hybrid state, considered by the engine as both on the ground and in the air at the same time. I’d assume pre-normal jump animation frames are the same, but it’s more difficult to test.

For a bit of extra fun, you can even try this scenario:

  1. Have a dummy Hugo jump right in front of you and perform Gigas Breaker (SA1) upon landing.

  2. Right before Hugo lands, perform the super jump canceled Flash Chop motion (2369). The timing is a bit tight, make sure you hit ALL the directions before the super freeze.

  3. During and after the super freeze, drum the strong button to make sure the super jump gets cancelled into Flash Chop.

  4. Gigas Breaker will come out and completely whiff in your face, and Hugo eats the Flash Chop during the recovery.

Pretty useless but fun! :slight_smile:

This is pure gold, BillyKane!! Are you going to show this during abso2k4? :smiley:

PS: you didn’t answer my PMs :frowning:

Sorry man, sometimes I get lazy and just forget to answer. I just sent you a reply.

About using this at Absolution, maybe, but I think I’ll just be cheap and use Yun. :wink:

I can’t post with my main account anymore because of the forum glitch! :frowning:

By the way, please let me know if you get my reply, I’m not even sure I can still send PMs with my old account…

EDIT: Nevermind, PMs still work.

After seeing the Apoc-like length of your posts in this thread, you sure don’t seem lazy :lol:

I got your reply, thanks! Already answered (actually, I hope you can still read with your old account.)
Maybe this forum bug is a conspiration to keep euro players divided so they can’t get better and beat US!
Or maybe I just need to stop drinking :lol:

I tried doing the kara-FC with HK, it’s soo damn hard…I end up doing a lot of low HK’s with Alex. I’ll continue trying it, but that jump cancel FC seems a bit more viable to me.

Is it possible to combo into these as in: s.mk, jab kara-chop or s.mk, super jump canceled jab chop? The idea would be that if you get parried a throw will whiff you and you get the chop. If you don’t get parried, the combo works.

The reasons I could imagine these not working are that the s.mk is not super jump cancelable (I don’t think) or it does not recover fast enough if parried. If it doesn’t work does alex have any moves that would?

BillyKane : This is very interesting, thankyou for posting this gem.

I was wondering if you have thought about combining the two methods? Wouldn’t there be a higher chance that one of them will come out?

Ex: 2369+hk, mp

BillyKane, your posts explained a lot.

I saw this one match between Alex (Happy) vs. Makoto (??? Might be J) where Alex does a lot of empty jump-ins into flash chop. I was very surprised that his flash chop connected so many times and I thought it was because of Makoto’s throw range being short. Now it everything makes more sense.

Thanks for the informative posts!

Haha, that’s exactly how I first figured it out actually. I think that match was on Cooperation Cup 2 (I think it was happy vs Chemuru, not sure), I got really surprised when I saw it too so I tested a lot of stuff in training mode and came up with that explanation. It’s not as difficult to land as I initially thought once you get used to the timing too, I landed it a couple of times today. It’s funny because it happens so fast most people don’t really understand why they get hit, they just assume they misjudged their throw range. :wink:

Alphastorm: I thought about combining the two methods too but it doesn’t really work because you can’t cancel the pre-super jump animation with a normal (st. HK). So [2369+hk, mp] will pretty much always either perform a super jump unless you mess up. For that reason it seems better to just pick one of them. I personally recommend just learning the super jump canceled Flash Chop to be honest, it seems to work better than the kara one.

sundu: That’s a good idea but I think jab kara palm would come out to slowly to really work and as you said, st. forward isn’t super jump cancelable. I will test it later to make sure though. The best way I know to “counter” a parry after standing forward is to cancel into super, most people try to hit you afterwards anyway. A charge-partitioned stomp would probably work well too.

I dig it!

Oh man, sweeet info.Thanks!

how would u know that u’ve performed the kara-flash chop?
is it noticeable?i mean, like chun’s kara wherein u can really see her eat space?

yeah,you do see alex move back more than he should.

Hoy pinoy, balik ako dyian this june. you know where i can find good comp?

hoy pinoy

i thought i’m the only filipino posting here…(aside from dennizen)
well,f u come back here just let me know…
good machines are to be found at SM Megamall,SM North, and at Ali Mall…
good players???
try me.:smiley:

*yagami = aaron?

Hindi po.:stuck_out_tongue:

hey are u connected with the sf3 scene over at manila? do you know the southmall boys? high level comp?il be going down there this june, hope to play ya too!

let me guess…

seeing filipinos window shopping in orchard road
seeing filipinos hang around in SRK
seeing a few , very few filipino players in bugis …

damn :slight_smile: ,
and seeing yagami sleeping in the bus at the early morning as i’m going to school …

i feel like going to philipine too … though i failed to get there last year …
it has been alot of pinoy’s in singapore …