KARIN Matchup Thread

nash

#1

Help with defeating the Kanzuki Clan!


Nash Match-Ups Thread
#2

I hate this bitch with a passion!!!


#3

any tips on beating karin?


#4

Karin is probably my most frustrating match up at the moment, although I am finding more the problem is my defense, knowing her combo strings and when I can start mashing jab to punish on block.

I have started training mode playing Karin so I can identify her combos - has definitely helped so far.

I think a big part of figuring out tough match ups is understanding the other character.


#5

whats the best way beside of lp spam to prevent her ressenha to connect at all?

blocking it with all the option she has seems to be the worst thing you can do.
when she does her hp version she can grab you, command grab you, or continue with the sweep.
so when you block down, she might grab you.
when you grab her, she might do the command grab, or just grab and both are out of the situation.


#6

You can beat Ressenha followups by mashing cr.LP. It will stuff her slide and go under her flip grab. Easy confirm into LK Sonic Scythe.


#7

someone else mentioned that in a other forum too.
i did the mistake to try to punish with crouching mp all the time.


#8

Karin is super unsafe. When you block her overhead, you can hit her out of any of her followups. She’s -4, -5, and -6 respectively. The heavy version can be flat out blown up before she can do anything else after the first two hits of her overhead are blocked. She can’t even recover in time to block from the heavy or medium versions before you can hit her with basically any medium or light you want to, provided you didn’t just hit her out of the air in the first place with literally anything.

Her anti airs are terrible. as are her reversal options. She needs meter to even do her DP, but since it starts up in five frames, it’s not even a threat from any plus on block or even neutral normal you throw at her. She can rarely just block and use it as a reversal. It’s only invulnerable on her upper body (or so I’ve been told). It’s only a wakeup threat at the most. Her other anti airs are standing HP, seriously… standing LP, or c.HP. c.HP moves her WAY forward so it wiffs on a lot of jump ins, it’s really not as good as people think it is.

Her normals have bad range. standing HK is her best ranged normal, but it’s -4. Chun, Nash, Cammy, (insert character with good range on normal here) can literally just stand outside of sweep range and throw normals at her and the only way she can hit you is by throwing out the overhead or jumping in. Her standing MK is good. but, if you are in a situation where you are that close to her and you aren’t at an advantage, you did something wrong.

How you beat her is pretty easy, and I think people will start to have a lot less trouble with her as they figure out what she can and can’t do. in neutral, stand outside of sweep where she can’t hit you with anything safely but you can hit her. since she has bad anti airs, jump at her. once you are pressuring her, she’s pretty screwed. She needs to burn meter or V meter to even try and do a reversal. Don’t try to punish her MK. Its 0.

Came in here to ask what the hell Karin is supposed to do against Cammy. :frowning:


#9

sorry, wrong forum. Didn’t see an option to delete. :frowning:


#10

dont delete the post please. great info vs her


#11

The karin player I was fighting just kept using her dashing back hit to approach which was completely unpunishable and used it consistently to keep me at a range where her buttons wrecked the shit out of mine. It felt like i was always on the run and nothing she did was punishable enough for me to influence her behavior.


#12

Ressenha loses to b+MK and cr.MP.


#13

you mean her first two hits get beaten by it?


#14

Yeah, those normals beat it clean if timed correctly.


#15

c.HP is a better counter to Ressenha. In a lot of her jumping attacks, a perfectly timed c.HP will connect standing for an easily confirmible full combo. Early it gives you easy anti air with the most dmg/meter gain. There is an option select on block however: punish with c.LP, c.LP. On empty and d.K, you will punish and can confirm into combo. On u.K she whiffs and you have enough time to a land a c.HP, s.MP max dmg combo.

A major thing with her is DO NOT waste V-trigger if you are not already in the lead and pushing the win or closing out the match. Doing b.VT gets you out of every single one of her canned mix ups and punishes nearly all of them for free. The only way this can back fire is if they don’t commit to the mix up (EX: VT, GK) and then immediately do EX-RS…which is hard to do (especially guessing the side if you do f.VT.

Beating Karin is largely in stopping her offensive momentum and landing every punish you can.


#16

JimFrank’s description of neutral game against Karin is grossly inaccurate and will get you killed against competent Karins. Jumping in on Karin because her AA’s suck is not a sound strategy because a good Karin will properly space themselves for their Anti-Airs to work. Playing outside of her range is important but that’s the same as any match up. Her footsie tools are actually quite strong but you have the mobility and range to play outside of these ranges but I wouldn’t consider her normals bad by any means. Anyways, this is a WIP write up on aspects of the match up. Updates will be done on the google doc and here when I have time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BJ7b8VZFgMmZFAmSKoILeM-qRldhtV9DhPjKxOJHnW8/edit#heading=h.foeoly3p97ex

Neutral:
Karin is equipped with good walking speed, good dash, and good mid-to-close ranged normals so she is equipped to play a strong footsie game. Her best pokes to harass you is s.Forward, cr.Forward, s.RH, and cr.RH. Her whiff punish tools involve these normals but she gets to capitalize the most from a s.Strong whiff punish.

During neutral you can play at mid-to-far range with Sonic Booms, cr.Forward, f.RH, f.Fierce, and f.Forward to try and force Karin to come to you and then get her to take damage during her approach. Be aware that Karin’s Ressenha special can be used to punish fireballs by going over them and she can then confirm that into a knockdown to start her pressure game. You’ll want to throw in some fireball feints through slight of movements and whiffed normals to bait the Karin player into doing Ressenha. You can hit Ressenha as it’s coming toward you with most anti-air buttons or with EX Sonic Scythe. You can also block the Ressenha and punish using the knowledge in the Defense section of this guide.

At midrange you want to play just outside of Karin’s cr.RH and s.Forward range but this will be harder due to Nash’s slow walk speed. This is generally the ideal range you want to be at in this matchup, as it gives you the opportunity to whiff punish her cr.RH and s.Forward with s.Strong xx Sonic Scythe and gives you an easier time to react to her jumps with an anti-air.

Offense:
Karin’s EX Ressenha is her most reliable anti-air option and her only reversal option. It has startup invincibility on it so it’s a viable reversal on wake up or if you’re over committing to your offense. You’re going to have to play it by ear based on player habits but you’ll need to learn restraint in your offense to properly bait the reversal. It’s -41 on block and leaves Karin in a counter hit state so this is optimal for a Crush Counter combo. Refer to the combo section for optimal Crush Counter combos.

Alternatively, you may want to end combos in Tragedy Assault to limit Karin’s access to this reversal. Keep in mind you lose offensive momentum after a Jab Tragedy Assault in midscreen. Also, be aware that you cannot completely deny meter gain to your opponent due to the natural progression of a match and other variables.

Defense:
Once Karin gets up close it gets rough. She’ll mostly use s.Short (+3), cr.Strong (+2), and s.Strong (+1) to maintain pressure and for frame trap purposes. It also allows her to tick throw and then throw bait by using the frame advantage to walk in and out of your throw tech range into a whiff punish. It’ll be very hard to contest Karin with cr.Jab checks against these normals to the frame advantage she gets. Thankfully her cr.Strong and s.Strong has decent push back on it so for Karin to continue offense she has to walk forward allowing you to check these with a Jab. This definitely leaves you susceptible to frame traps and can lead into good damage and a knockdown for Karin. For example, she can do cr.Strong, walk forward, s.Short and on counter hit she can link into cr.Strong, s.Strong xx Tenko or RH Munjinkyaku.

If you’re close to stun or death be on the lookout for Karin’s command overhead (f.Forward/MK). It’s 22f start up so it is reactable and even more so if you’re situationally aware of it. On block it’s -4 and you can punish with s/cr.Jab xx Short/EX Sonic Scythe.

Karin has a strong reset game that are situational but can lead into high damage and stun situations. Knowing how the various resets works allows you to recognize the situation and better defend against it.

In the corner off of combo ending in Tenko, you are left in a juggle state in the air that allows special moves to combo. A normal attack will not juggle in this situation but if they whiff one jab and then immediately do another jab, the second jab will hit and cause you flip in the air allowing for several reset situations. The first reset situation is doing a forward dash, which places them behind you for a crossover reset. The second reset situation is cancelling the jab into qcf+Short, which is her command dash but leaves Karin in front of you for a fake crossover reset. If the opponent holds forward in this situation she can actually cross you over anyways. The last reset situation from this is to use Jab Ressenha, which is a meaty overhead and allows her to link into cr.Jab xx Tenko, where she can convert into damage or go for the reset again.

From midscreen, Karin has 2 reset opportunities off of 2 different situations. The first situation is comboing into EX Tenko into the jab air reset. The opponent can cancel the jab into qcf+Short to stay in front or qcf+Forward to go behind you. The other reset situation is comboing into EX Orochi, which leaves you in a crumple state. From here Karin can do s.Fierce xx EX command dash, which will cross you over. The other option is she does s.Fierce/s.Strong/cr.Forward xx Short command dash to stay in front.

Karin’s Ressenha special (qcb+P) is a 2 hit overhead special and is -6 on block making it punishable on block. This move is meant to punish fireballs but you’ll also see this move in block strings and randomly in neutral to catch people by surprise due to it’s overhead property. There are two follow ups that create a mix up option that’s not very good once you break it down. The overhead has two follow ups, which are d+K and u+K. The d+K is a slide that hits low while the u+K is a command grab that will only hit if you’re standing. There’s no threat of an overhead in these 2 scenarios so there’s actually no reason for you to block high once you block the initial overhead part. The d+K follow up actually has a gap that allows you to cr.Jab counter hit, cr.Strong, s.Strong xx RH Sonic Scythe punish every time. The u+K will cause the cr.Jab to whiff but gives you more than enough time to punish the recovery with cr.Strong, s.Strong xx Sonic Scythe after wards. However, if you continue to block low and wait for either follow up you can punish with a cr.Fierce starter since d+K is -12 on block and the u+K has a lot of recovery to visually confirm the cr.Fierce punish timing. The only reason you want to use the cr.Jab, as an interrupt is if the opponent decides to do nothing after the initial overhead, which prevents you from getting a cr.Fierce punish starter. Sometimes, Karin players will purposely stop at the initial overhead and then try for a throw in case you attempt to block the low after wards. The cr.Jab will punish the ‘do nothing’ option but you’ll have to confirm into s.Jab xx Short/EX Sonic Scythe instead.

Tenko (qcf+K~P), the command dash into the upwards strike is -10 on block and is punishable with a s.Fierce starter. The EX version is also punishable with a s.Fierce starter. Orochi (qcf+K, d+P), the command dash into shoulder tackle, is -2 on block keeping her safe but gives up momentum. Be sure to check her with cr.Jab after wards; be aware that she could do reversal EX Ressenha to check your jabs. The EX version of Orochi is much more negative on block and can be punished with a cr/s.Strong xx RH Sonic Scythe.

Short Mujinkyaku (qcb+Short) is an awkward move to punish and is completely dependant on the opponent’s spacing. When done up close where both kicks are blocked she’s -5 so you can punish with cr.Jab xx Short/EX Sonic Scythe. If the second kick is going to whiff you can actually punish with a s.Fierce xx Sonic Scythe after the first kick. You have to know when the second kick is going to whiff in order to get the s.Fierce starter. Currently, most Karin players will do cr.Forward xx Mujinkyaku so if this is done about mid to max range from her cr.Forward, then the second kick is guaranteed to whiff. This is the visual indicator you should be aiming for when looking to punish in between the kicks with s.Fierce. If you have V-Trigger you can actually punish with s.Fierce xx Jab Sonic Boom xx f.V-Trigger, j.Fierce, cr.Fierce, s.Strong xx Sonic Scythe.

Forward Mujinkyaku (qcb+Forward) has the same properties as the short version but it has a follow up kick that’s an overhead. You can interrupt the overhead with cr.Jab but it’s better to just block high after the initial kicks and then punish afterwards. The overhead follow up is -6 on block, which allows you to get a s/cr.Strong xx Sonic Scythe punish. Blocking high in anticipation of the overhead will cover your basis for Roundhouse Mujinkyaku as well. Again, if you know the second kick is going to whiff you can punish with a s.Fierce starter.

Roundhouse Mujinkyaku (qcb+RH) has the same properties as the short version but it has a follow up where Karin does a second set of double kicks to cause a knockdown. It’s primarily used as a combo ender than anything else. The second set of kicks leave Karin at -15 after wards giving you cr.Fierce, s.Strong xx Sonic Scythe. Originally, there was a gap in between each set of kicks that would frame trap you if you were mashing in between; however, this seems to be removed and now it forms a true block string.

When Karin activates her V-Trigger she gains access to her Guren Ken special, which are her rekka series that come built in with various high/low/cross up mix ups. Understanding all of her options from her Guren Ken gives you a better ability to defend and counter Karin’s options. The first part of Guren Ken is the initial rush of punches. Once this part of the move is complete she can branch off into her follow up options.

The first set of options you’ll commonly see after Guren Ken are the u+P, u+K, and the d+K follow ups. The u+P is basically her Ressenha overhead special that you need to block standing. However, Karin can then use the u+K follow up, which is the same command grab follow up from her Ressenha, to catch your stand block. The d+K option is the same slide follow up from her Ressenha and needs to be blocked crouching. The initial mix up here is strictly a guess between stand blocking the overhead, crouch against the command grab, and crouch blocking against the slide. If you block the u+P follow up, it’s -6 and you can punish with a cr.Fierce starter. A lot of beginner Karin’s like this as the first option because the overhead on hit is +4 on hit and let’s them link into s.Short xx Tenko into Critical Art among other things. When you get conditioned to blocking the overhead she can then use her u+K to command grab you or d+K to hit you low. You can use cr.Jab to interrupt both the u+P and u+K options but the d+K or P follow ups will counter hit your Jab interrupt. If you block the d+K follow up, it’s -10 and you can punish with a cr.Fierce starter. If you block the P follow up, Karin is -9 and you can punish with s.Fierce xx Sonic Scythe; however, the timing on this punish is awkward because the P follow up leaves you in block stun longer than expected so you need to time the s.Fierce late.

The next part of the mix up is if they opt to do d+P after Guren Ken. d+P is a shoulder tackle that has multiple follow ups after wards. Again, if you use cr.Jab after the initial Guren Ken you will counter hit Karin out of the d+P follow up but you have to worry about the d+K or P follow ups counter hitting your cr.Jab interrupt. If you block d+P, Karin gets branching paths again. The first option after d+P is another d+P, which causes Karin to go behind you with another shoulder tackle. This is a cross up and must be blocked on the opposite side of where you’re facing. If this cross up hits, the opponent can cancel into their Critical Art. This is often the first level of mix up that beginner Karin players go to. It ends up becoming extremely telegraphed once you see it a few times. This follow up option is -11 on block and you can punish with s.Fierce xx Sonic Scythe. The second option after d+P is u+K, which is the command grab again. The last option after d+P is d+K, which is the slide option again. Knowing this, there’s actually no reason for you to block high if you block the first d+P. It’s a matter of blocking low and then reacting to the cross up. The smartest thing for Karin players to do in this situation is to stop after the initial d+P because it leaves her +1 on block for continued pressure.

The last option Karin has out of Guren Ken is a K follow up that’s essentially a back dash. This is mostly used to bait out reversals but since Nash doesn’t have any you’ll rarely see this option used against you. The easiest way to avoid the mix up situation is to V-Reversal after you block Guren Ken. If you have V-Trigger then you can actually punish the opponent if they attempt any of the offensive follow ups. The timing for this punish is after you block Guren Ken; immediately do a b.V-Trigger and if they do any of the offensive follow ups they’ll whiff and you can do a j.Fierce, s.Fierce xx Sonic Scythe punish. Some follow ups let you get j.Fierce, cr.Fierce, s.Strong xx Sonic Scythe punish while others leave you too far for the s.Strong to link so it’s easier to do s.Fierce xx Sonic Scythe for consistency purposes. This would be the only time that Karin would want to use the K follow up after Guren Ken as it would avoid this punish.


#17

thx for the write up


#18

@Killey awesome guide and write-up. really appreciate it


#19

Match up notes have been updated and is mostly completed at this point.

EDIT: Added information about Karin’s reset game but the google doc has reference videos to see how they work. I’ve done my best to describe how they work and what the results are but a visual is always helpful.