Wow…lotta hawt fiyah in here.
Run pressure is a myth, it’s like Bigfoot at this point.
You want it to be there because it’s cool as fuck, but you gotta sit down and realise mystical things such as this just don’t exist.
Let’s be fair, run pressure is pretty valid in whiff punish situations (meaty pressure) and anti airs (mixups). He just can’t get much from it since his meaty pressure is rather weak.
Don’t just run cancel everything you can (you’ll get blown up obviously) but if you condition your opponent and pick your spots (most important imo) you’ll be able to use his run and not get punished alot more than you think.
Things like st.mk anti air run cancel. Will put you in a 50/50 situation in your favor. When the opponent lands lock him in with a Cr.mp (while also confirming to see if it hit)
Your opponent is not gonna be mashing buttons all day out of fear of getting CC. (if you’re conditioning them properly) sure lots of shit can be punished BUT it’s your opponents job to punish. It’s up to you to sneak those punishable moments past them. Shouldn’t be too hard if your game plan is more than (run cancel everything bruh)
Run cancels: great on whiff punishes, CCH, and anti-airs. Usable if you’re seriously in their head. Without serious conditioning don’t bother.
FYI. English is not my main language so there you go.
How does this even matter, back medium punch is 4 frames, it’s beating anything regardless.
Cause if they block that back mp you are -2. It kills any pressure you might have had. It also makes frame traps to lights (that are useful for spacing) weaker since now 3 frame lights will trade, breaking your pressure yet again.
Certain frame-traps won’t be as consistent as before. St.Jab walk-up Low Strong seems to strike out as one of the options. Against over-protective defense, this is okay to do as a loose string, and you can convert into Low Forward xx Forward Tatsu on CH.
Using a frame-trap sequence similar to this, you are not feasibly in range for Away Strong on both CH and on block from Low Strong.
I would usually have the option to Low Forward after it on block to see if the opponent likes to walk back because of spacing error, but now Low Short from recovering of the opponent could now potentially stuff Ken’s Low Forward now (because Ken would be -5 by the time Low Forward becomes active if assuming immediate start-up of Low Forward just after Low Strong). The options of pressure became slightly more limited now due to the nerf.
In this game if a light and a medium hit on the same frame the medium will stuff the light.
That’s not the point. It’s that by being +1 that means the only tight frametrap is into a move that lets your opponent mix you up on block rather than returning you to neutral at even or your favor as most frametraps do.
The frame trap in question is medium to light, in our case let’s say cr mp -> st lp. It now has a 3 frame gap so it trades with 3 frame lights. cr mp -> cr mk also trades with mediums since it now has a 5 frame gap.
Other then the most obvious points
There are a couple other issues with this change. Ken’s only + on block moves after a blocked meaty cr. MP, st. jab, and cr. jab. You can single hit confirm a cr. MP especially on counter-hit into good stuff, so cr. MP->cr. MP was a very solid respectful block option if you saw the first was blocked and was probably the go to since they removed Ken’s ability to confirm from cr. MP->st. jab->(anything). I think after the beta 3 nerfs people starting spamming cr. MP -> cr. MP internally and capcom didn’t like that without looking into WHY Ken’s were actually doing that … because you shat on our other confirms. You’ll notice Julio’s Ken used a lot of cr. MP even in neutral since cr. MP has almost the same range as cr. MK and st. LK but is + on block.
+1 also has a lot of issue in my book. +2 gives a 6f gap which meant cr. MP -> st. FP would blow up cr. MK mashing since most cr. MK’s are 6f+ and you can space that string so that MP mashing which would beat it is dangerous also. cr. MP->st.FP now loses potentially to cr. MP’s, st. MP’s, AND cr. MK’s almost universally. At +2 I still think st. FP should be 7f at +1 … i don’t know what they want me to do. Also when meatying cr. MP you could easily get to +3 or +4 with the extra active frames before making cr. MP-> st. FP a legit blockstring that would beat just about everything if spaced well. I don’t have active frame data, but that is obviously more difficult to do now if it is even possible. They seem to want me to press st. FP without giving me the frame data or range to make it a threat, i only have on place to really press it now which is after 2 jabs … which won’t trick anyone after a time or two and I can’t threaten a throw after 2 jabs so why would anyone press buttons?
+1 on cr. MP also means you lose to jab mashing when doing cr. MP->cr. MP unless you get extra frames through your meaty setup. This means Ken now has 0 hit confirms that leave him + on block and give him a confirm that is safe to jabs. Also a good block string at near max cr. MP distance was cr. MP->st. MK. It would beat anything but an empty buffered reversal timed medium punch from most characters and if you just stood there you could whiff punish them and get back in. st. MK’s hitbox beats 6f cr. MK’s normally at that distance giving Ken a solid option to deter mashing that is going to be more difficult to do now that cr. MK now collides 1f before st. MK goes active so that blockstring may not work anymore depending on exactly how the hitboxes line up and that will be one of the first things i check.
You never had pressure after cr.mp cr.mp because you were too far out to actually do anything meaningful, so who cares?
Also, cr.mp, st.hp was almost never “real” in the first place because cr.mp is +2 and st.hp is a whopping 9 frames, leaving a 7 frame gap to stick something out. 6 frame low forwards or low strongs or whatever already beat it. 1 frame down isn’t going to dramatically change that option.
Taking a wild guess, they probably nerfed it because they didn’t want cr.mp xx fireball to be a true blockstring. Maybe a reaction to the way people were using his FADC/V-Trigger thing and hit-confirming off safe fireball strings.
And of course, when it comes to wildly over-reacting to 1 point of frame advantage, ya’ll are ignoring that they also added a frame of hitstun to his s.mp on hit, which probably means it combos fully from farther out, and made his st.hp -3 on block instead of -4, making it safer. Not that any one of these things is anything to freak out over, but, I mean, that’s the point.
Not true you can threaten a st. MK and get mashed out by MP’s or beat cr. MK’s and sweeps which ‘kinda’ still works though it is less legitimate for obvious reasons. cr. MK’s used to hit on the same frame so now it will depend if his hurtboxes the frame before it goes active are good enough to beat cr. MK’ still You can do nothing to get a whiff punish, and you can threaten a dash->throw or dash->jab from that distance. You also have st. RH if you think they will react to a slight pause in your tempo with a button. He is pushed out but not ‘done’ there. +2 just makes the respect options less legitimate.
The real nerf though is cr. MP->cr. MP is no longer a legit blockstring in and of itself against 3f jabs and cr. MP->lights are no longer frame traps against lights. This makes cr. MP a poor choice up close which when combined with his blockstring nerfs in beta 3 his ability to pressure up close is legitimately shot.
Hm, actually i didn’t realize st. HP got nerfed in beta 3. It used to be 8f and at +2 you could frame trap cr. MK’s if you did the cr. MP a bit farther out. cr. MP has more uses then at point blank … well did. It still does but they are becoming more gimmicky or are gimmicks now.
They could have reduced the blockstun by 1 and recovery by 1 and left it +2 if they wanted that. Changing it from +2 to +1 was intentional.
The problem is st. MP has a whopping 7f of startup and is neutral on block. It’s only use was that it had a far back hurtbox and could beat low profile moves a bit at a distance without being terrible on block. They removed its only real advantage and combo’ing to fireball is only useful if you have v-trigger stocked as you could combo into MK tatsu and EX Fireball already. Also with the new fireball nerfs you don’t EVER want to do a fireball on block as it is sweep punishable if you do it even at max sweep range. It is at best a wash and at worse makes the move worthless depending on how bad the hurtbox change is. Unless this enables something like RH tatsu to combo I see no benefit in that and +3 literally can’t combo into anything at the range you want to use this move.
The fireball and v-trigger nerfs are MUCH worse, but shit like that is just a slap in the face and as skies put it … makes it look like Capcom is trolling to make Ken purposefully terrible. Personally I’m hoping we missed something with his normals on hit->run cancel and maybe some of his mediums are + on hit from run like st. MK? Needs to be tested empirically so we can figure out if we are missing something critical.
Who else is subconsciously humming Kens’ theme while reading this?
Lol are you serious? Of course you had. You get to walk forward or press sk mk which beats all lights at that distance. If the 2nd cr mp connects st mk beats everything. If the first cr mp is a ch you get a combo. Even if you don’t press anything, you are at a good position to whiff punish most moves. It’s significantly better than -2 at point blank.
It was pretty real in beta 2 when st hp started at 8 frames and the the cr mp pushback allowed for it to connect after a medium to light blockstring. Right now the issue with the +1 is that 8 frames is too much to punish late tech.
cr mp -> hadoken is not a true block string, it’s just not as easy to punish as cr mk -> hadouken. But even if you were right, are you aware that they also increased hadouken block disadvantage by 2 frames?
Extra hitstun frames don’t increase a move’s range. St mp doesn’t combo from anything as it has a 7 frames startup and combos with exactly the same moves it comboed before the buff which are exactly zero without a ch. With a ch, at that range, the only thing that combos is an ex srk which comboed before as well. But while you are talking about this amazing buff to st mp, you forgot to examine what expanding a low hurtbox at startup does to the move, which was the more important change it received.
As for over reacting about 1 point of frame advantage, a) in fighting games, even 1 point of frame advantage can make a huge difference and b) cr mp was one of the few reliable buttons left to Ken and it was nerfed already with that ridiculous pushback.
i ain’t playing this nigga if he stays like this for release.
Depends on how you want to define real in this case. I could say in my earlier posts that the Low Forward after a Low Strong (Beta 4 Low Strong at +1 on block) could be delayed for it to work… but that doesn’t stop from limiting your tight frame-trap choices, which seems to be the main target of the problem.
From what I understand, it’s definitely an option for Ken to do Low Strong, St.Fierce as a very loose frame trap that can work out at very specific times… so, I definitely do see this happening if you condition the opponent or “feel” the opponent is too defensive. Seems real to me… in fact, I’m positive I attempted meaty Low Strong, tap away, St.Fierce as a loose frame-trap at some point in some of my matches.
What makes this less a plausible choice is when you reduce tighter frame traps… which is exactly what the Low Strong change did (albeit by one frame). It gives the opponent more hope in that he/she doesn’t have to worry too much about another Low Strong or that his next poke will likely be counter-poked if the person were to time a normal of choice just after recovering from blockstun.
Signing posts always confuses me, I can see your name to the left.
I’m always humming the Ken theme, my friends and family hate me for it.