Ken General Thread: Go with the Flow

ken

#3121

Is this bait?
Why in the world would you want them to renerf the crlk > stlk or thunderkick combos? Ken can finally play rock paper scissors without bar. Thunderkick starts up so slow if they get hit by that thing they should eat whatever combo comes afterwards. plus now that its scary there’s actual reason to use the feint. HERE IT COMES jk crlk>stlk>tatsu w/e this is how those moves should’ve worked in the first place.

I agree about chinbuster on whiff though, it’s hot garbage


#3122

Indeed thunderkick is one of the slowest overheads in the game but there are set ups to use it like TC1xxTatsu HK , if they backroll it catches them if they dont press buttons and its easier to teach them to do not do it when u have such a combo finisher.
normalsxxEX Hado VT on block is another way to do it.
There are other oki set ups about overhead too , my point is that Ken has various ways to mix u up with dashes , runs , throws , frametraps etc so its not that difficult to make the scenario happen.
Imo it was harder in S1 with CH to hitconfirm and before that felt skilful and satisfying.
At least when u want such a reward it should be punishable as everyone else.

Now about cr LK st LK combo.I ll start by saying that u could and can do cr LK,st LP or cr LP.Both share the same scenario as first cr LK would hit an opponent standing for whatever reason.Now the difference between st LK and st LP is that st LK makes all 3 hits of HP DP hit while st LP doesnt if u arent close enough(st LP has better block advantage though).Also st LK hits opponents that are further compared to st LP.
Lets make it more complicated , if u do cr LK cr LK st LK (opponent must block first cr LK or be on crouching position and u are hitting him while very close) , if u cancel st LK to HP DP as i said above it will make all 3 hits to connect , u can even deal more damage by canceling to super on second hit if u wanna go for the kill.Replace st LK with st LP , u ll see that u cant connect HP DP (at least in S1 u couldnt) but only Tatsu LK and EX Tatsu , if u wanted to go for the kill for super u had to cancel right away , thus making it reasonably more difficult.

I ll go this thing further , if u want to catch somebody jump OS , two cr LK will do the job (late fametrap too but thats another thing and scenarios) , it will catch people commiting to walk back after first block attack too (yes st LP,cr MK[late hit confirm] does the same but loses to 3f normals).
If i am not mistaken not many characters can do 3 cr LK as a chain to begin with right?(opponent blocks first cr LK for the other 2 to connect)

Personally i believe that Ken’s gameplay should resolve from up close compared to other shotos , recquiring good hitconfirms and reactions .Thats why he might need some stuff in his offense like the cr LK blockstring but not lame stuff.

If patch wishlist about Ken doesnt fit here then excuse me :slight_smile:


#3123

1st point. sure you get the overhead if they back roll but if they quick rise you eat shit for it. so it’s still a guess. dash, run or throws are not mix ups. ex hado VT on block into overhead is easy to react to.

cr.LK st.LK is necessary because it’s kens only light string that the game doesn’t recognize as a chain. all others have to be delayed to create gaps. the second part about "making it more difficult " is just a word salad.

two cr.LK will not “do the job” because it is a chain. the opponent cannot do anything during this if they block the first cr.LK and the ken player delays the 2nd…opening him up to mashing which everyone does anyway.

ken doesnt have the buttons or frame advantage to be an in your face fighter…after the opponent blocks 2 or 3 attacks it’s back to neutral. he’s designed to be an oki monster.


#3124

you’re posting in the correct thread but people think you are trolling when youre talking ken nerfs when other characters can do shit like this

this is off of a frame positive option, thats faster than kens overhead.

tell me again how thunderkick is too strong haha.


#3125

If u chekced i have already said that Urien , Guile , Cammy , Necalli , Laura , Gief , Boxer needs nerf to the same or more degree to some stuff.Its hillarious to make it seem as i meant that Ken is better than those chars written.

I dont know if Urien’s problem is his VT potential specifically nor i can say what to nerf exaclty on him but for sure u cant have a char with 1025 life with such pokes (even cr lights) , 2 free get in EX moves (well almost) , great dash , big damage conversion off of an AA , great VT for comebacks.I ll leave this to Urien lads to say hoping Capcom will nerf annoying stuff or whats needed without ruining completely their char :slight_smile:

Well even if they quick rise , if u have showed them that they cant press buttons and u keep them honest about your meaties then more probably will be taught not to press buttons and hesitate , so its not that bad.
About VS and run i was reffering to blockstrings and pressuring after your meaty.

EX VT on block isnt easy to react to if u are mixing things up.Whats true is that they can Vreversal instead and stop your pressure.

If they are mashing so frequently then u are playing against “weak” opponents that would lose to basic frametraps as u already know.

Ofcourse Ken isnt stupidly godlike like Cammy to blockstrings and frame advantage but u are downplaying him if u are not considering him average or above (that doesnt mean its OP in any case).I never said to change his HK Tatsu oki either , what i said about this part is to trade damage and stun values with his HP DP which is ok too cause his meterless corner carry is too good as it is from S1:)


#3126

[quote=]
[gognito;11204808]

So your idea of making this game better is nerfing the top tier…and the mid tiers…because thats where ken is…mid tier.

if they quick rise you’re at -6(and point blank range) …a lot of characters can change the match off of an opening like that. you going to give mika, laura or boxer an opening like that? its not some auto pilot gimmick, you gotta pick your spots to use it

if ken is mid tier how does it make sense to nerf?

his corner carry is too good? what does that even mean? its one of the few things that makes him good.

this game needs more good characters not less.


#3127

I feel like ken loses unless he scores a knockdown and they make several wrong guesses. I consider ken to be the best shoto in the game only because akuma dies and ryu has weak oki. ryu wins in almost all scenarios that aren’t oki against ken, so kens oki should be da best.
If they took away the new tools without giving him new neutral tools (better fireballs, less pushback on counter hits, things ryu has) then he would be a dead character. i don’t trust capcom to nerf him and buff him in ways that will change the playstyle he currently has. at most we can hope they don’t make it worse. i sound like Stockholm syndrome i know.


#3128

you’re 100% correct. there are very few characters that Ken beats in neutral. but once he scores that knockdown you get to go nuts a little. bad thing is you gotta touch em 3 times for the dizzy.


#3129

quick compilation video I put together


#3130

There are two ways if u want to balance something.U can either buff low-mid tiers while leaving top tiers as they are or nerf top tiers to match those lower.Dont like the first direction , its like the Marvel way.
My idea of making the game better is to nerf any annoying - overpowered move or tool regardless of tier list.For example Ryu’s j LK is still very good and should be fixed (hitbox and/or hurtbox nerf-tweak) but in season2 as fucked up as he was it was ok having it.About Ken , personally i believe he is upper mid among Karin , Rashid , Dictator and Ibuki (perhaps she is more than that).

By saying his corner carry is too good means that its not reasonable to have all the advantages.Should be divided with his HP DP , if u want more damage and stun go for the DP ender , if u want corner carry and better oki go for the tatsu ender.

So now u are telling me that ryu has better AA game , better buttons , better pressure (after jump in lets say) , better corner carry , better CC buttons (not talking about punishing a blocked DP move) and better punishing normals?(like punishing -4 moves as Boxer’s dash straight)

If they were to give him better fireballs then what Ryu and Gouki should be all about?Ken has already a great Hadoken (LP , and no i dont mean its OP or anythng like that) for his mobility&AA options and for what he does.Actually its the first time to a SF game that they made Ryu and Ken feel so different and unique we should aknowledge this (i am a SF4 fan).

Everyones OH thats + on hit its -6 on block usually in this game.Nerfing his st LK its not a big deal , he still has st LP to combo , would be a big deal if they nerfed his range like Ryu’s :slight_smile:

Not trusting Capcom its a whole different story but i dont want them to fuck hard with him each season experimenting :wink:


#3131

Ken struggles against each of those characters that you named as “upper mid”.

his dp ender already does meh damage. 200 for a bnb is pretty standard. his corner carry is what makes him Ken. without it you might as well pick ryu. the hk tatsu doesn’t always work, when they are too far away you just whiff. so it’s not just choosing if you want damage or corner carry

better? who knows if his buttons are better. what i do know is ryu has a 5 mp thats +7 on hit. ken doesnt have any button thats +7 without a counter hit. f+hp is +8 on hit, sure it has slow start up but so does kens st.hk which you can’t combo unless point blank(unsafe) or on CC. ryu can check up close pressure with his jab ken cannot. lk tatsu is -9 and hella risky to just throw out there.

as far as aa goes all the shoto dps suck. ryu at least has 15 frames of invincibility on ex dp. ken has 5.

ken has a great Hadoken? hahaha great in what sense? being slow and super unsafe.

ken has a -6 overhead as well. thunderkick is unique to him if I properly predict you and hit you with a 26 frame overhead you deserve to hold that combo.


#3132

When talk about tier list u look for overall matchups not how your main does against top tiers.If Ken is in the same tier with those i categorized as upper mid it doesnt mean it has to be favorable MUs for him , and “struggle” doesnt mean its bad MU either :slight_smile:

If u were reading carefully what i wrote u would see that i said to trade damage/stun values with his HP DP.Its very rare to whiff HK Tatsu now , in S1 it whiffed when u crossed up or cross under then cr MP , TC1xxTatsu HK.

Its hillarious to do this but i ll have to.

Ken has 4f button to punish -4 moves , Ryu doesnt.
Ken has better Vreversal , i am not talking about Ryu’s knockback range nerf , talking about making it slower.
Ryu after a cr MP on hit he has to spend EX stock to combo his st LK if they are not standing , Ken doesnt.
Ryu’s st MP is +7 cause they changed his cr MK from 6f start up to 7f.
Ryu cant continue pressure after a blocked medium against 3f normals , while Ken can b MP hitconfirm.
However what Ryu has an advantage is his damage output i think.

b.MK is -6 on block cause on hit its +1 and it should match rest of the cast when it comes to this , if they want it to be something unique to him then make it punishable as the rest of the cast (or more?)

Shotos DP doesnt suck , Juri’s does.
Ryu’s EX DP has more invincibiliy (which it shouldnt imo) and better start up (which nobody should have 3f DP so you could safe jump since its very occasional this to happen in SF5, perhaps if any should have a 3f EX reversal then he should be Gouki cause of his life) but Ken’s trajectory is much better (in VT range is reasonable ridiculous cause its your only tool to punish on reaction fireballs ) , Ken’s MP DP is better too , u cant neutral jump against Ryu’s MP like Ken’s though , as long as DPs dont have invincibility Ryu and Gouki should have the same or almost the same trajectory as Ken’s.

Yes Ken’s Hadoken LP is great cause its travel time is slow , u can zone with it and in conjuction with his AA abilities its really good , again reasonably cause frame advantage sucks.This for all shotos in SF5 and its not something new about projectiles in this game (there are always exceptions).Lets compare Ryu’s Hadoken and Ken’s.

Ryu:
Start Up|14
Recovery| 33

EX= 11 , 33 , +2 ,

Ken:
Start Up| 14
Recovery| 34

EX=12 , 33 , +1 , +3

Ryu’s is slightly better than Ken’s frame data wise and for what Ryu does compared to Ken in S2 is insignificant.Generally i would like to see Ryu be the hadoken specialist and Ken the shoryuken specialist :slight_smile:


#3133

This nerf mentality has to stop.
All shotos should get buffed. And Ken needs more fixes than buffs.

Ken’s fixes:

  1. Counter hit c.MP into b.MP should ALWAYS connect on point blank range. This is can be done by:
    . 1.1) Reducing c.MP pushback
    . 1.2) Expanding b.MP forward hitbox
    . 1.3) a combination of both above
    . 1.4) reducing all CH pushback of the game (which would benefit all chars)
  2. Non vtrigger l.tatsu into DP or Ex DP - Should ALWAYS connect if if l.tatsu hits 2 times, especially mid screen.
  3. f.HK into l.tatsu combo should work on Birdie, Gief and Urien (hurtbox problem)
  4. Vtrigger TC1 xx Vskill, l.DP, Ex DP should work on Balrog (hurtbox problem).
  5. Make some light buttons not chainable, like c.lk into s.lp. Only s.lk is not a chain. And it’s negative on block. That’s ridiculous.
  6. Fix the goddamn s.HK CC on airborne opponents. You can’t link a DP on it. If you don’t recognize the situation instantly, you’ll whiff the DP and get max punished.

Ken’s buffs (if any):

  1. TC2 should have no pushback, as S1. This is one of the worst nerfs imo.
  2. c.mk xx EX Hadoken should always link on hit, even on max distance.
  3. Divekick is completely useless. It’s worse than a regular jump in. They should revert the hitbox/hurtbox as S1 and keep it -2 on block. Or just remove it completely and give Ken something else.
  4. Chin buster 2nd and Lion Breaker - Increase damage back to 60. It’s a Fierce and a Roundhouse button, both very negative on block, hard to hit confirm and both deals only 50 damage! Jesus!

Very debatable buff:
5) DP revert to S1. We all know: EX DP is a good combo ender, not a good reversal.
6) b.mp 0 or +1 on block.

Ken nerfs:

  1. None.

#3134

I agree only with this one , had forgotten that :wink:

Just to let you know , tried his VS LP DP EX DP combos against Boxer and they work normally.
Havent download Kollin to test this but i played 1 game against her and i think run combos LP DP EX DP combos dont work on her.If anyone could test and let us know?


#3135

just so you know…they fixed that against rog a couple of days ago…I agree with everything douglavras just said so i’ll leave it at that.


#3136

Yes man i know , if u have read i had posted about it before Kolin update :slight_smile:


#3137

Thx guys. Didn’t know about that fix.

But they didn’t fix f.HK, l.tatsu on Gief, Urien and Birdie. That’s strange.


#3138

I was just about to ask someone if this still works.
After many attempts, I just realized that j.mk only hits cross up if the EX DP is VTCancelled on the 2nd hit.
Also, if you mistime and VTC on the first hit, you can cross up with air tatsu.

Just sharing for anyone who wanna try this setup and don’t wanna freak out.


#3139

[quote=“douglavras, post:3138, topic:175767”]

I was just about to ask someone if this still works.
After many attempts, I just realized that j.mk only hits cross up if the EX DP is VTCancelled on the 2nd hit.
Also, if you mistime and VTC on the first hit, you can cross up with air tatsu.

Just sharing for anyone who wanna try this setup and don’t wanna freak out.

[/quote]

U can safe jump 4f reversals if u whiff cr MP instead of cr MK jf HP.However if u go for that u have to use Tatsu if u want to go for the mix up.
Momochi uses cr LP , VS , back dash jf , its also a 4f safe jump.

Additionally In case u try to use that set up after a juggled EX DP , like CC HK , VS , Tatsu MK , EX DPxxVT , u have to whiff cr HP backdash jf.If u use Tatsu HK it crosses them up


#3140

are we longer able to get HP SRK after a 3-hit MK Tatsu?