Ken General Thread: Go with the Flow

ken

#3181

Wtf is an active frame variation?

Anyway you’re free to think whatever you want. I ain’t got time to make a video of this, but it’s verifiable in training mode.


#3182

I can confirm that this is real. Like he said, just go ahead and practice it in training mode. Cammy has a similar setup after spiral arrow.


#3183

https://clips.twitch.tv/GeniusGoldenCheeseSoonerLater there ya go, lazy bones.


#3184

thanks was trying it off of grounded opponent hk tatsu. good to know. means tc1 into it has to grant more than 18 frames. good work sir


#3185

there’s always a period of time before start up frames become active.


#3186

There’s a problem with making s.lp,c.lp,s.lk xx HP DP your go to follow up.

If your opponent does a quick get up into wake up button, the s.lp will counter hit. Against some characters, like Necalli, this will cause the s.lk to whiff.

First time I’m hearing about this. Any link to read up more on?


#3187

I believe in manually timing oki

DP ender = V skill (react to quick rise type) then throw.shimmy.meaty
HK tatsu = Hold forward (react to quick rise type) then throw.shimmy.meaty


#3188

I used to believe in manually timing oki while trying to react to quick rise/delay rise too, but I kept losing matches because I’d miss a meaty at critical points and get hit by wake up jab xx v-trigger or something similar.

I asked Xian about it (I’m Singaporean) and this was his advice:

  • In the current meta “Pro players” don’t even try to attempt reacting to normal vs delay wake up. The only exception is probably Sako. The reason for this is that different characters have different wake up animations, and some characters have animations that make reacting to normal vs delay wake up particularly difficult.

  • He then explained to me what top Japanese Ken players do for oki in situations where the opponent can do both quick/delayed wake ups.

  • Momochi favours doing a delayed cr.mp. This will allow him to block a quick rise 3 frame jab, but will frame trap a lot of other options. The only option that beats this clean is to quick rise and mash throw, which is highly counter intuitive and risky.

  • Eita usually starts off with a meaty light attack that is timed to hit a quick rise, but will input a throw if the light whiffs. This covers the worst case scenario of being back thrown into the corner, while giving him the offensive edge if the opponent quick recovers.

After taking Xian’s advice, I’ve found my oki game improving because now when I lose out in an oki situation, I have a better understanding of how I went wrong vis a vis my opponent’s tendencies (e.g., this guy has a tendency to quick rise and 3 frame jab in critical situations, so I should’ve gone for a straight up meaty or shimmied) as opposed to previously when it was kinda just “oh well, my reactions failed and I messed up my timing… too bad”.

Of course, having said all this, I acknowledge that you’re a much stronger Ken player than me, so I’d appreciate your thoughts on this.


#3189

It’s messed up, but you have to practice getting used to character specific wakeup animations. Ibuki is easily the hardest in the game, then laura is kind of tricky too. Still, if you can get ibuki’s wakeup down then you should be able to do any other character.

“Oh well, my reactions failed and I messed up my timing” is a good mentality to have, i’d rather lose a bunch of rounds grinding out the reactions for the future than resort to unoptimized oki just to keep myself from getting tagged.


#3190

Really thinking about getting back into Ken as a secondary considering Juri is going to remain trash and I need Alex differentiation. A lot of his changes and system changes make him seem a lot slower paced, less dumb options and overall a little more like the SFIV Ken I loved so much.

But seeing as I haven’t been here since S1, I’m so disappointed that they haven’t fixed his consistency issues and took away his 4f b.mp yet Cammy has it(what in the literal fuck?).

His hit confirms are still the prime factor in a good Ken for sure, but the consistency factor on BnB hit confirms seems really stupid for no apparent reason.


#3191

The nerf that piss me off the most is definitly the one to his kick TC, that shit whiffing at max range is so annoying.


#3192

I’ll go glance over the notes in S2 and S2.5 real quick to acquaint myself to new Ken. Probably gonna be angry when I get back.


#3193

Holy shit Ken got obliterated in S2 and 2.5 made Thunder Kick pointless again. Lol.


#3194

It’s not like Ryu obliterated but yes he did get hit pretty bad.


#3195

Exactly! S2 have actually improved the cancel part of ken’s hit confirms. For instance, H tatsu connects after Chin buster 2nd in 99% of the time. That wasn’t the case in s1. And you can cancel on h.tatsu on TC2 now.

On the other hand, they didn’t fix the TC1 after ch c.mp, plus you can’t buffer it anymore. So in S1, chin buster 2nd wouldn’t come out if you were out of range after ch c.mp. Now, not only it will come out and won’t hit, but you’ll also get punished because you guessed right and did the right execution.

Not only that, they nerfed TC2 too. Lion breaker doesn’t connect on max distance s.mk, which is kens main whiff punish tool.

Also, h.dp doesn’t hit 3 times unless you are very close because they changed the cancel animation.


#3196

At this point, all I want is to be able to play a decent counter poke game, because Ken is literally not winning any footsie/poking battle against like half the cast. DP should work properly after the update now, just give us a guaranteed combo after a counter hit c.mp, a 3-frame jab (seriously, this feels SOOOO good with Ryu, and really adds to your defense) and max range target combo 2 doesn’t whiff. Ken won’t be broken, won’t be top tier I don’t think, won’t be cheap, hard to master, but I think two things will happen. 1) Matches will feel more fair and balanced against the cast, which as a shoto, I think is pretty much a must because of their standard playstlye. And 2) Momochi won’t be losing to nonsense, he’s so clean, and both c.mp and TC2 gets in his way a LOT!

Capcom gonna capcom, but whatever, I really don’t understand why Ken doesn’t have a 3 frame jab in the first place.


#3197

I don’t think ken NEEDS a 3 frame jab, because he used to have the best mp in the game, bmp, now he has neither.
Im so tired of that counter hit crmp messing up my obvious combos. In every single way i am a better player than i was in s2, but practically every game i play im missing at least one opportunity due to this counter hit.
People who i play with regularly dont understand why i complain, they think ken is a random guessing game character like s1 rmika, yeah im right there with you im always guessing my OWN confirms. i have switched to stlp>bmp which is a tighter but safer link. but nobody respects my damage, they only respect dp. Feeling like, sf4 yang. I do alot of work for small damage and wait around for vtrigger.


#3198

S2.5 patch reverts important stuff that made Ryu bad, but nerfs Ken further. But it’s not just numbers, it’s about design and mus. Ken will easily be the worst shoto in 2.5.

In season 1 Ken had a good defense, high damage output and an excellent punish game, but he was still loosing to a lot of chars on the ground. Capcom wanted a strong Ken, so they gave him broken tools in the air to compensate. His air tatsu was simply retarded, but it was the only way to fight against Chuns, Guiles and the like.

In Season 2, Capcom does not want a viable Ken, there is no other reasonable explanation for their changes. They methodically and intentionally made each and every aspect of his game weaker.

Ground game? They nerfed every one of his useful buttons, like b. mp, cr mp, st mk, st hk, st mp and cr hk. Ken is now worse at punishing, easier to low profile and even easier to punish with some of the most ridiculously slow buttons in the game… His defense was also hurt a lot by the b. mp and srk nerfs. Talking about the srk nerfs, i get that they did not want invincible moves for no meter, but then why leave the CC properties on hp srk intact, thus allowing for 300-500 damage punishment for dropped combos and why mess with srk as an antiair?

To top it all off, they also nerfed his air game to the ground. The air tatsu had to be fixed, the risk reward was just stupid. But the air ex tatsu nerf is just mean. The move’s hurtbox was already easy to hit in season 1 if you had good reactions but now you can just hit a random key at a random timing and it will stuff it clean. But since they wanted to make it completely useless, they also made it -2 on block. I mean wtf, it costs meter, it’s dead easy to stuff and it leaves you at -2 right next to your opponent when blocked.

The only useful thing he got to balance out all those nerfs they are now taking away, in the same patch they decided to buff Cammy and leave Boxer as is.

As a non pro i don’t mind the nerfs all that much to be honest, but if i was Momochi i would be furious. Ken is not an easy character to master, those 1 hit confirms alone require countless hours of grinding. Pros don’t play for fun, their income depends on their performances. When a pro sacrifices the time to learn a complex character he is making an investment. So when Capcom actively sabotages said investment, it’s not pretty.


#3199

I Think Momochi resorting to Ibuki/Bison is somewhat evidence of how bad Ken is now. I’m normally optimistic about Ken but his changes are questionable from S1 to S2 and the last thing he needed was another nerf.

Also I played the beta. HP SRK can actually be used as an anti air which is nice because of the damage. But the thunderkick nerf is ass


#3200

the HP srk buff helps, but it’s not enough. Ken lacks a 5 frame normal with any range and 3 frame normal. so up close and mid range he loses a lot of battles. no air game as the poster before mentioned. I could see most pro Ken players leaving him after the next season. Karin does nearly the same things grounded Ken does with better mix ups and buttons.

guess we will live and die with hp dragon into oki.