Ken's UNBLOCKABLE Jump-in MK/HP with videos!

ken

#1

Update Check my latest post at the bottom to see details of the newly discovered unblockable jump in medium kick!!!

Hey all,

I was just doing some testing on Ken’s jump in fierce for someone in Ken’s general discussion thread and stumbled across a VERY interesting find.

[media=youtube]4WDl7bNWzEs[/media]
[media=youtube]i8JqzrYnhro[/media]

GTF’s latest video of the extra unblockables against half the SSF4 cast!!!
[media=youtube]UfolrY0Lkrk[/media]

When Ken performs his ambiguous jump in fierce, it becomes UNBLOCKABLE against a few of the cast.

It is not unavoidable though:

You can duck the FP version, but you can’t duck under the MK version.
You can dash forward or backwards to avoid the mk version, but not the FP version.
It can be reversal’ed (again, still a fairly risky choice for opponent).

The characters that CANNOT BLOCK Ken’s ambiguous cross up fierce punch are:

Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Bison
El Fuerte

The characters that CANNOT BLOCK Ken’s ambiguous cross up MK are:

Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Bison
El Fuerte
Cody
Guy

Whichever way they choose to block, they will eat the punch or kick.

The full post is in the general discussion thread at the top of the Ken stickies but I felt this warranted it’s own thread.

What do you guys think? This isn’t old news is it?

Surely an unblockable jump in that works anywhere on the screen and is highly ambiguous is a massive boost for Ken in those matchups?

I’d just like to repeat, this is UNBLOACKABLE but not unavoidable

G.


#2

i just set the ryu dummy on all block … n it didnt work ! ;/


#3

I think that it’s because the computer can choose not to block until the very last frame possible. If you record the dummy to perform the following:

Throw > step back > jump in fierce (so it crosses up) > combo finish.

Then play it back and YOU try to block it using either direction and you won’t be able to. Don’t know why for sure. I can only assume that the hit box moves a tiny fraction if you try to walk forwards to block the cross up, thus clipping Ken’s bounding box and not letting him cross over. Thus, if you pull back to block you get crossed up, if you push forwards to block, you get normal jumped.

I’m sure the timing was not hard as it happened on my first recorded attempt.

If I get a chance tonight, I’ll do a video for people to dissect and see if we have something here…

G.


#4

I jus set it up against ryu and ii made ryu block


#5

I’m very willing to eat my words on this, but:

I get the feeling it works the same way as any crossover, but because the crossover area is so small, it can go “either way” very easily, and thus is creating a superstition in you. It just doesn’t seem to have any properties which are in any way “special”.

Crossover attacks work because the attack hit box reaches past the BACK size of your character’s main collision box, allowing you to hit an enemy even though you’ve passed over him/her.

In the case of j.FP, the overlap between the collision box and the hit box of the attack is seriously tiny (which is why it’s so hard to nail the distance), and even a slight change in hit box position from the victim (i.e. just idle standing animation*) might result in pushing it either side (the “incoming side” of the attack is determined by which side the main collision box is on w.r.t. the other player). So the cases where you think you’re blocking the right way… it might just have been pushed the opposite side to what you expect.

Like I say, I could be wrong.

*Then again, you say you’re doing this on waking up opponents? So maybe the idle is reset? Or is the recorded ken waiting for the enemy to be fully upright?

Wow, there’s so many factors to consider… could be resulting in “perceivable randomness” even though the underlying rules are still watertight and deterministic.


#6

I set this up by recording a Ken dummy to do the following:

Walk up throw > step back slightly > jumping fierce punch (delivered to hit as a cross up)

I then set the dummy to playback and tried to block it in both directions. Neither was successful. When I tried to block it as if it was a normal jump in, I got hit by the cross-up, when I tried to block the cross-up, it landed as a normal jump in.

I’m gonna recreate it right now and video it ASAP. It doesn’t seem to work if you set the dummy to “all block”. Set the dummy to do the attacking and do the blocking for yourself.

I’ve just repeated it and I’m uploading the film to youtube as we speak. Bear with me.

On another note, the timing for the jump in also allows you to avoid reversal DP’s, so this jump in can ONLY be dodged by crouching!!!

This gets better all the time…

Video to follow.

Peace,

G.


#7

so if this is truely an unblockable, ryu akuma ken bison and fuerte REALLY have to be careful not to get grabbed…or else full combo of choice :o


#8

Bison And Akuma can Teleport out, Ryu and Ken might be able to reversal shoryuken, El Fuerte might be able to EX habareno dash out. It’s just unblockable, not unavoidable.


#9

If the dummy can block it on all block it isn’t unblockable. What you seem to be describing is exactly what it is: an ambiguous crossup.


#10

Here is the video. Bit of a rush job so bear with it…

[media=youtube]4WDl7bNWzEs[/media]

So just to clarify it if the inputs are too blurry.

On the first 3 jump ins, I tried to block the attack as if it was going to be a normal jump in. The result was that the dummy landed the jump fierce as a cross-up attack and scored the hit.

On the rest of the attempts, I tried to block the jump in as if I had correctly guessed the cross-up. The result is that the dummy no longer crosses up my character and lands in front of me and hits me with the normal jump in.

So whichever way I block, I’m going to get hit. I must emphasize that I AM NOT ATTACKING, the dummy is, so this is the same spacing and timing for both outcomes.

The escape options are:

Crouching on wake-up (big gamble on their part)
Reversal move (DP’s whiff under and is punishable, not sure about Elf and Bison’s options but fairly certain they can reversal safely with ex moves).
Dashing forwards I think will allow an escape as the wake up player is not being hit with this attack as a true meaty.

What do you guys think?

I see this as being VERY very useful against Ryu, Ken, Bison and Fuerte, but Akuma is just gonna tele at the first sign of trouble.

G.


#11

How high are you when you land the FP on Fuerte? Because if you’re above his head or at head level you get to eat Ultra Spark :3

Even if it is unblockable, you can backdash out of it if the person does this a lot and eat the FP but you don’t eat the follow up combo


#12

I guess you are correct, but the difference is that your opponent decides which way it goes and it always goes the opposite way to the way they chose to block.


#13

So far, the only reason I can see that allows the dummy to block this when set to all block is that it doesn’t “hold” block one way or the other during wake-up, i.e. the computer doesn’t start to block the attack until the frame of actual contact.

Humans don’t do this as far as I’m aware. I tend to hold the direction of block, the second I think I know which side the attack is going to land and in most cases, I work it out from where the opponent jumped from. I guess at higher levels of play, people may wait until the frame before contact before blocking and this might allow you to block, but I couldn’t do it.

I’m seeing this as being akin to Chun’s unblockable corner cross-up that was in Vanilla SF4. That one only worked against Shotos so maybe it is a similar phenomenon.

I’d love for someone to replicate it as well so we can see if we have something useful here…

G.


#14

Ok so wat if we block it like the dummy and block late?cuz holding one direction makes the difrence.so if the computer can blok it then its blokable.when the unblokable ultras we’re found they had the comp to blok.so this setup can b blockd its just very hard to block but we aalredy knew this from the begining.I dnt think this is major unless its truley unblokable in every and anycase. But for akuma n bison jus put an option select behind it and it shuld b good against them.if u can do it with the computer bloking it post a vid of that plz


#15

I do not know about this unblockable but just because the CPU can block it in “All-Block” mode does not mean a human player can.

[media=youtube]LqlMBitsh40"[/media] does not work on the “All-Block” CPU but it is an unblockable unless someone disproved it, I don’t follow the other forums so I would not know.

Looking at your video it looks like an unblockable. The distances are always the same and you are saying that if you block it as a normal attack it crosses you up and if you block it as a cross up it hits you as a normal attack?

That has nothing to do with you moving when you get up and holding a direction because technically speaking if you are blocking it like a cross-up then you are moving forwards and the FP has more chance of ending up behind you but it still lands as a non-cross-up.

Maybe it is just the way handles blocking input that allows this and Chun’s unblockable to work? Then a lot more characters would have unblockables though … Maybe it has something to do with the characters’ hitboxes when you are holding a direction?


#16

I’m going to have another play with this later this evening to see if it’s at all possible to block this by waiting till the very last second to try and block the jump in. I have tried to do this once already and couldn’t block it at all, but people are putting doubts into my mind.

Just to confirm:

I believe this to be a similar “unblockable” technique to the one that Chun Li had in Vanilla. In SF4, Chun could use her df cross-over in the corner and against shoto characters and Viper, it was completely unblockable. It DID NOT WORK against the CPU dummy when set to “all block” but seemed unblockable when the blocking was being done by a human player.

This is what seems to be the case with this scenario. I have yet to successfully block the jump in from Ken. The upside to Ken’s unblockable is that it can be done anywhere on screen (Chun had to have the opponent tight against the corner wall), the downside is that it can be ducked (Chun’s couldn’t) and it can be forward dashed under (Chun’s couldn’t). Obviously, certain EX reversal moves can avoid it, but all DP’s will whiff so Ken can punish these.

I’m surprised no one else has managed to replicate this yet as I have managed to do it easily on my first or second attempt each time. My execution isn’t great and I’d expect people to hit the timing much more reliably than I can. Set the dummy to do the attacking, NOT the blocking. The “all block” technique is misleading people I think.

Like I said, I’m going to do it again this evening and try to block as late as possible to see if that allows Ken to block the cross-up, but so far, I can’t find a way to block this, only ways to avoid it.


#17

This is what appears to be happening:

  • The jump is timed such that Ken is in front of the opponent on their wakeup frame, but behind them on the next frame (there may be some leniency depending on the hitbox shapes).

  • The opponent’s hitbox is slightly higher during the first frame of their walking animation than during the first frame of their wakeup neutral/blocking animation.

  • The jump is positioned such that if the opponent holds forwards then Ken is low enough to hit them meaty (from the front). If they hold backwards then Ken is too high to hit them until the next frame or later, by which time he’s crossed them up.

To block it you have to press ‘forwards’ on your second wakeup frame, which is why auto-block works. I’ll look into it in more detail later; there’s potential for this to be abusable with other characters too.


#18

[Edit] What sprint said. Ignore me.

@G77 I think I understand how it works now, thanks for the video!

Boring post coming (I am a game developer. This stuff is very interesting to me):

Assumption 1: The “Side” of an attack is decided by comparing the centre of a character’s collision boxes against each other.
Assumption 2: An attack lasts for multiple frames.
Assumption 3 (and this is the questionable one): Block stun doesn’t stop attacks from the opposite side it was triggered from.

Thesis: Ken’s j.fp ambiguous attack “slides” across the top of the player, hitting both sides - at first on the front, then on the back.

If it is blocked early (i.e. pull back), the attacker “slides” over the victim’s collision box until it is considered to have “crossed up” (Assumption 1).

Because the attack is still active, but it has crossed over, it loses its “has been nullified by block” property*, and becomes active on the other side. Because the block is held in the wrong direction, it hits. (So it might be blockable, but you’d have to move from “back block” to “forward block” in the same frame that the attack crosses over)

This explains what is happening to the ending positioning in G77’s video - every time you block back, the attacker lands behind you - by blocking the “forward” component of the attack, you’ve forced their collision hull to slide over you. When you block “forward”, you take their attack immediately, so no “sliding over the top” occurs before the attack connects.

Hmm. There might be some breakdown in logic there. It’s very interesting, though.

*I have no way of knowing if this is true.


#19

That’s kinda what I tried to say in the third post.

My guess is that Ken’s “neutral standing” and “walking backwards” collision box’s are lower or smaller than his “forward walking” collision box.

Thus, if you tried to walk/block backwards, the attacking Ken’s bounding/collision box clears the blocking Ken’s box and produces the cross-up.

If you try to walk forwards/block the cross-up, the blocking Ken’s collision box “jitters” or raises up slightly, just enough to cause the attacking Ken’s collision box to get stuck on it and land as a normal jump in.

Whatever’s happening, if you could perfect this move, it would basically guaruntee the jump attack on your opponent.

Because blocking tends to be the preferred/safest method of defence, especially at high level play (a lot less DP mashers) I could see this being quite useful.

I still haven’t checked out all the escapes but here are the main outcomes from this set up:

Normal block - gets hit
cross-up block - gets hit
Forward Dash - escapes but can be Option Selected
Back Dash - FP whiffs but you can continue with your BnB as normal and they can’t block it (they basically back dash right into your cr.lk!!)
Crouching - dodges the jump in all together.

Ken, Ryu, Akuma reversal DP - whiffs and allows a full damage punisher
Bison and Akuma teleport - escapes but can be Option Selected against
BIson Head stomp/devils reverse - escapes but can be Option Selected against
Bison Psycho Crusher - need to check this as I’m not sure if it whiffs or auto corrects
Elf - unknown.

Now obviously if the opponent has specific Ultra’s selected, these will change some of the options available to the waking-up player.

Even if there is a single frame window of oportunity to correctly block this set-up, I’d still wager it landing 99% of the time (if they don’t go for the reversal/escape).


#20

Sounds good.