Kick your sneakers off and relax~ Guy General Discussion Thread

guy

#1701

You get counter hit by their aerial normal.Won’t lie, this was one of the first ideas I had, and in the middle of a match I have and probably still will for some time naturally use this in response, but it doesn’t have the priority in this situation against most of the utilised air normals.

On a side note - you going VS Fighting 4 in August Nebbz? I already booked to go.


#1702

Guy should really be getting two costumes, we still lack a 3rd Alt along with a few of the cast.


#1703

I thought we were talking about instant jump back normals? If they are just jumping back and then doing a late normal, then either elbow drop air-to-air or air grab them before their move comes out. Or just give them ‘the boot’ with far st. HK. Characters who do instant jump back normals (e.g. Dhalsim and Balrog using jump back fierce) you can run slide punish their recovery as they are landing.

I was so hype for VS Fighting but I can’t make it for a couple of reasons now I’m afraid. Transport and accomodation was supposed to be sorted out for me but it fell through, and I am signed up to run a marathon for charity on the Sunday morning. So basically, no I’m not going :frowning: I will be at Sodium Showdown in Bristol this Sunday. I don’t think it will be streamed though unfortunately. I’m in the single and team tournaments for USF4 and am pretty confident in winning both of them. We shall see…


#1704

Aw man - shame. I was kinda psyched to meet you in person. I honestly have no idea how VS Fighting is going to go for me. I’ve been making an effort to play people from the UK scenes and trying to establish where I am in the pecking order, and I’m feeling quite confident in what the rest of the West Mid will be throwing at me, however there is gonna be a lot of international killers coming for that insta-qualification to the Capcom Cup too. Would have enjoyed seeing a friend :confused:


#1705

Excuse the double post, but as a topic of discussion I think this is worth putting in its own, separate post.

I was looking at move properties in training mode against Rolento with a training buddy running through some scenarios to try and improve my match-up knowledge. I think there is a very important property to moves that never gets spoken of or used as a basis for argument when talking about move priority. Frame data and hurt/hit box data monopolise conversation, but both of these can be overcome by positioning.

For instance, everyone who understands the mechanics of safe jumps understand the rule that it doesn’t work on 3f reversals.

This isn’t true. Even when playing as Guy, there is a spacing just far enough that a jumping forward roundhouse will tip the enemy on wake up, but the distance between the opponent and Guy’s landing hurtbox will be so large that it will take 4+ frames for their DP to actually reach you, even though it’s active from the third.

What I have noticed in the use of footsies is how Guy’s positioning on his moves it not very helpful. far standing mk starts up in 8 frames, but stretches immensely far, making most people see it as and excellent poke. What you may not realise, is that in those first 7 frames before the hitbox appears, the hurtbox on his leg extends outwards as he is lifting his leg for the poking kick. You’re moving your hurtbox towards the enemy before you can attack him. This is actually the main reason why this move gets counter hit so often in footsies. You get 7 frames to hit an opponent continually moving towards you. With your typically footsie button/s you can hit Guy if it pops out quicker than 7 frames (naturally) but also, if you throw it out too early, there’s a fair chance Guy will move into your footsie tool before your hitbox goes away.

I’m sure anyone can think of a move or two which may not be ‘safe’ on block, but the character retreats or recedes so far that even on a whiff it can’t be punished by other moves that will activate before the first recovers.

The majority of Guys moves actually work on the principle of him gradually moving the hurtbox towards the opponent and not retreating or receding during recovery. And in many cases, this make moves that by frame and hitbox data or real legit actually present a significant concern once limbs for flying. I undoubtedly believe it’s the reason people caricature Guy as a frametrap character, because a frame trap is about hitting the enemy before their attack gains a hitbox. When the enemy has a hitbox out, Guy tends to run the risk of moving into the hitbox before it disappears even though the incoming attack wouldn’t have reached him if he didn’t press a button.

Look at Ken’s step kick carefully. This move has a slow start up and you can clearly see him moving forward, however, as he moves, he actually lifts his leg forward only to the knee, then flicks out the lower-leg in a brief amount of frames before the hitbox appears. If his leg was out the whole time, he would be closer to you for longer, making him more prone to being counter hit if you press a quicker button after him. It would also mean if he hit the step kick after your normal Ken’s hurtbox would reach you quicker during the start up and therefore be more likely to move onto the hitbox of your move.


#1706

Yeah it’s a shame, it would have been cool to meet you bro. BTM Gun Slinga will almost certainly be there since he’s from the Birmingham area. He’s a very solid Guy indeed, depending on the competition and how things go for him on the day, I would hope/expect him to make top 8 at least. See if you can meet him and tell him I said hi! Other people to look out for will be BTM Isam (Dudley), ProblemX (C.Viper/Seth), ImStillDaDaddy (Guile), Milligano (Bison) and obviously any international players. Luffy, Alioune, Valmaster and some other top French players will likely be there, maybe Emersion (Vega). Even Infiltration or other Asian players may make it.

Get as many casuals in as you can outside of the main tournament. Do not get flustered by losing, but always know WHY you lose and try to adapt from it. Certain players will have tendencies which you will pick up on after a few games. DO NOT play like you play against random scrubs online. Online you can get away with assuming the opponent won’t know the Guy matchup properly. Making this mistake at a tournament will get you killed very quickly. If you pick up on the opponent using low profiles to blow up elbow drops and bushin flips, stop doing them. Try to minimise random stuff like run overhead from half screen away etc.

But most of all, enjoy yourself and try not to worry too much. Stay focused and do not be intimidated by players you assume will be better than you. I have beaten Ryan Hart, ProblemX, Luffy and ImStillDaDaddy at tournaments before. Try and focus on playing the matchups. For example if you’re playing Ryan try to focus on everything you know about the Sagat matchup, instead of thinking “Oh shit, I’m playing Ryan Hart!”

I wish you the best of luck and hope you do well :slight_smile:


#1707

I would love to get that Ryan Hart Guy mirror match.

All I’d need is to take one game and I’d officially win all of street fighter by default.kappa


#1708

Lol his Guy is terrible. Like seriously…


#1709

In terms of popularity, Guy is at #15 in Japan :smiley:


#1710

(warning, I’m going to ramble, livejournal style, and the last part of this is going to make very little sense to most people, but I want to record these thoughts down because they represent, I think, a fundamental stage of growth in my use of Guy as a character)

“If you want to play a footsie character, you shouldn’t be playing Guy, because there are so many characters with better footsies” - Rzr.Xian

Xian gave me that advice a few weeks back. Since then, they’ve forced me to undergo a re-assessment of sorts of the way I think Guy “should be played” (whatever that means).

When i first started playing Guy in Super, I used to jump and Bushin flip around a lot. Trying to take advantage of d.MP elbow as a pressure and fake out tool, and abusing the fact that most people would instinctively stand block whenever they saw a “jump” and would get grabbed by Bushin flip. This worked great for awhile… but then people started learning the match up. They’d low profile the elbow, they’d crouch the Bushin flip. Life started getting a lot harder and I was forced to re-evaluate how I played Guy.

Then I started seeing Kiyomatsu videos, and it was as if a light bulb went off in my head. Kiyo, who played Guy as a footsie God, with impeccable spacing with his ground buttons and run-stop frame traps. Kiyo was the Guy who became the epitome of how Guy should be played. Solid. Ground spacing with impeccable pressure once you got the chance. It was beautiful, it was elegant, and it was how a street fighter character “should be played” at a high level. Ono once said that Guy was designed with a more “stoic” playstyle than Ibuki in mind, and those words rang true me as I decided that that was the path that would lead Guy to victory.

Except it didn’t. And not just for me.

For the last few years, no Guy has ever gotten far playing that way. The most successful Guy in the world, Marq Teddy plays a balls to the walls aggressive style. He doesn’t get much respect in these forums, because he doesn’t play the elegant game that Kiyo plays, but he does get better results than anyone else.

But even Marq Teddy hasn’t been able to break the glass ceiling. The very epitome of a balls to the walls Guy can beat a lot of players, but even he cannot seem to grasp the brass ring by beating the best consistently.

And I think most of us understand the reason for this on an instinctive level. Guy was not built for relentless aggression. If you want to play that game, you’re short changing yourself by not playing cammy, or the twins. The same can be said about a solid footsie Guy.

So does this mean we should all drop Guy? Or resign ourselves to mid card status?

Maybe not.

The thing about Guy is that he has a lot of strengths that don’t translate into a clear advantage in the neutral game. Unlike characters with dive kicks, fireballs or dominant game winning pokes, his tools don’t allow him to control the game once he finds his sweet spot.

Don’t get me wrong. He has strong pokes, and run stop pressure is a very valid game to build off a seized initiative. But they are not tools that are dominant enough that all you need to do is play solid, till you can get it started, then ride the wave to victory. They win games, but the risk reward isn’t there to give Guy a house edge.

So what are Guys tools good for? What can they be used to win an advantage for him in a way that minimises his risks while maximizing the potential for a reward?

The word. The key word, I now believe is “mobility”. The reason I started maining Guy in SF4 was the Bushin Flip. The unparalleled feeling of being able to flip across the screen, and in that moment, being in full control of what happened next was what made me fall in love with Guy.

As the years went by, the Bushin Flip lost its importance because it’s a move that can be easily countered by crouching. But the truth is, the Bushin flip never lost its importance as a move that allows Guy to control his positioning. All of us who regular use the flip to turn the tables from being cornered to cornering the opponent know this. The best counter to an offensive Bushin flip is to crouch down. But by doing that, the opponent also cedes to you, the ability to decide where on the screen you want to place yourself. This means that when you naked Bushin flip from the right distance, you give your opponent a choice- give me control of the positioning game, or take a big risk in trying to deny it from me.

The same can be said about the wall jump- the speed and range of the wall jump actually accentuates the uses of the d. MP elbow drop. With correct use of wall jump mk/hk and wall jump elbow drop, you can play the jump fake game without being automatically beaten by, low profile moves and kara tiger uppercuts.

This leads to a new doctrine that i want to explore when playing Guy. By staying mobile with jumps, wall jumps, and Bushin flips, I control the pace of the game until I find the right moment to attack. Guy controls the match not by having superior footsies or rush down, but by having superior mobility. No one touches Guy until he wants to engage.

And that is how a real ninja operates.


#1711

Kiyo doesn’t have much success like Marq because Marq is actually viewed while Kiyo is amongst the unknown. He went to EVO the last 3 times including this year and has done well. But he’s faced harder competition than Marq, Actually every EVO Kiyo has reached the pathway to top 32 like Marq has, but only through losers. Problem is Marq loses by his own faults, playing that run and gun style but never adapting to his opponent if they shut down his offense. He’ll continue the same path and same strategies hoping his opponent will mess up. Kiyo is however not like that.

Kiyo actually lost to Tokido this year, if he made it past Tokido he could have possibly made it to top 32 but it is what it is.

BTW anyone that says Guy isn’t a footsie character doesn’t understand the character at all.


#1712

Truth be told, its not just Guy, but other characters can seemingly get further with a random play style (though Guy would probably have a little more success because of less exposure). I think this is especially so in EVO because games are played in only best of 3 sets, a lot of good and smart players can get eliminated very quickly. Before top 8, the tournament immediately tests matchup knowledge, execution, and stage nerves, rather than allowing a longer and more analytical set of games. In this kind of format, Marq’s style can really put people off their guard, a few lucky Bushin flips or overheads and he’ll be on match point.


#1713

On a separate note, I gotta say counter hit cr.MP and cl.MK in the corner, is really good now, because of being able to link Ninja Sickle (2f link off CH cr.MP, 3f off cl.MK)

But this Ninja Sickle is close enough to connect a 4-hit HK tatsu, so you can Super afterwards. That’s 591 damage tops.


#1714

Long sets don’t really put into place how good a player can be actually. In tournament the only thing that matters is 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 5. All a longer set is doing is teaching you character knowledge and player knowledge on both sides of the floor. This could be a double-edge sword as not only will you show everything you mostly have you’ll know what they can do about it and such. Marq’s style only works against people with a lack of patience.


#1715

I think Marq’s style comes in handy in these short sets because he’s constantly on the offensive, so defense patterns aren’t being given away so much before the opponent is finished off.

Players with a slower analysis/download ability suffer in these best of 3 formats. But not all of these players are bad, and though long sets don’t place how good the player is, it gives more time to adapt a plan/conditioning, some players shine in this kind of play-field.

I don’t know, guess it’s just me, best of 5 sets just seem like a good balance.


#1716

Too long to be quoting in full, but this is why I did my weird ramble on the progression of Guy’s hit and hurt boxes during his moves. I became convinced his footsies were dangerous because of this minor level of analysis I was doing in training mode and practice sets with friends.

Guy ‘walks’ into his attacks. Footsies, which are used to protect your space and force your opponent to respect it before you lock in an scrap. You’re looking to hit your opponent as they approach too close, or spank an outstretched limb if they poke to early or late.

The new far :hk: has done some wonders but is by no means a universal footsie tool. It won’t cover CQC advances and crouching advances because of the switch to cl.HK and the lack of low coverage in either move respectively.

Guy is ‘good’ at various portions of the game primarily when your opponent is not specifically trying to counter or minimize that tactic. He can aa obnoxious jumps, push back opponents who rush at him, dupe enemies into standing with bushflips and turn CH’s into sizeable damage combos with frametraps on opponent bopping buttons. The problem is that these tools are not self sustaining. Guy’s frame traps do not provoke your enemy to press buttons, whether in fear of getting chipped to much or in fear that Guy’s blockstrings are too trick to block high and low effectively. His bushin flips never actually need to be blocked high. Your opponents don’t actually NEED to be in Guy’s face, considering he is a CQC character himself, so you can neutralize his footsie game by simple…not approaching him incessantly.


#1717

I read what you wrote, but I don’t think that’s the only problem here. Even if Guy had more buttons where the hurt box doesn’t stick out before the hitbox, his buttons won’t be superior to characters whom I’d consider strong footsie characters like Fei Long or Gen. Neither does Guy have tools like fireballs, dive kicks or jaguar kicks that can also dominate at the footsie range.

Guy’s footsie buttons are very strong defensively. They do a good job stopping the opponent getting anything started. But offensively, they’re weak in a world where Evil Ryu can score big damage off a low forward confirm. Even with all the buffs he’s got, Guy doesn’t have the two most important things that made him a footsie monster in A3- s.MP>lp. Hozantou being a combo, and s.MP> Super leading to big damage.

To compound the problem, Guy’s jump is very weak at footsie range. This is important, because a smart jump-in is the ultimate equaliser during the footsie game. When the opponent is focused on footsies, he’s less likely to anti air- so looking for the smart jump-in is as important to the footsie game as finding ranges and choosing buttons. But Guy can’t do this well- at the range where his footsies are a threat, the only two jump attacks he can go for are jump d.MP and jump MK, but lots of characters can option select to nullify both threats with a low profile move, or a delayed uppercut. Characters like poison and Rose are pretty much immune to j.MK cross up cause it’s hitbox will whiff totally when they hold forward.

But what I’m saying here is not that all is hopeless for Guy, and that all is doom and gloom.

What I’m saying is that Guy players need to explore alternative approaches to the character because 1) his footsie game isn’t good enough to win consistently just on footsies alone, and 2) if you just focus on the footsie game, you miss out on another core strength that Guy has - his mobility.

Guys jumps are terrible in the footsie range, but they are actually really good from close to full screen range, especially the wall jump, which feels faster than Guys regular jump, but also comes with the range of the regular jump. I’m currently in an early stage of figuring out how this affects Guy’s match ups, but already it feels like a the key to winning the Poison match up, which without the wall jump feels like a really bad match up to me.


#1718

I bought the SFxT character pack last night (XBL has it on sale for $5) just to use Guy. So much more fun to use in that game, seems like a rushdown monster.


#1719

He can also be rusndown in AE,in basically the same fashion… as SFxT.


#1720

Hey guys not SF related but my friend is doing a dual with stream with our buddy Ozzie. She will be playing Outlast with a drinking game involved :slight_smile:

http://www.kadgar.net/live/sweetmasquerade/ozzieowls844

Follow them both, please, the stream will commence at 12 PM (EST) :smiley: so in 45 minutes.